Transcript from 512: What if I Didn’t Stop? with Katherine Connell, Christopher White, and Elecia White.

Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, alongside Christopher White. We are entering our tenth bit with show 512. Our guest is Katherine Connell, a.k.a. Smalls. We are going to talk about stretchable circuits, body worn electronics, and, well, whatever we feel like.

CW (00:00:32):

Hi, Katherine. Welcome.

KC (00:00:34):

Thank you so much for having me. I am really excited.

EW (00:00:37):

Do you prefer "Katherine" or "Smalls" in talking?

KC (00:00:41):

Let us do "Katherine."

EW (00:00:42):

Cool. Could you tell us about yourself, as if we met at downtime at the Maker Faire Bay Area?

KC (00:00:51):

Yeah. I do a whole bunch of different stuff, from lights and stretchable electronics to animatronics. Basically I just love to learn and make anything I can. I like to specifically do things that seem impossible, or a little bit out of reach for what you would think that somebody at home making stuff in their loft would do. So that is what I like to do.

EW (00:01:18):

All right. But you do have a different career, day job, plan, thing, not-

KC (00:01:25):

Oh, I do. I live basically two lives. I do not know if you have ever seen the show "Severance," but it is basically like I have an innie and an outie <laugh>. I am a corporate by day, and then just this wild mad scientist by night. <laugh>

EW (00:01:37):

That is a little disturbing, but okay. <laugh>

CW (00:01:43):

Without the conspiracies, probably.

KC (00:01:45):

And the cult.

CW (00:01:46):

Right. Right. That is- Yeah. That is where I said it.

EW (00:01:50):

Okay. So we want to do lightning round, where we ask you short questions, and we want short answers. Are you ready?

KC (00:01:55):

Yes.

CW (00:01:55):

Preferred fictional robot? Vicki or Baymax?

KC (00:02:01):

Baymax.

EW (00:02:03):

Stickers. Shiny, puffy, flat, scented. What is your favorite?

KC (00:02:06):

Shiny.

CW (00:02:09):

Do you prefer your LEDs flashing, pulsing or solid?

KC (00:02:13):

Solid.

EW (00:02:13):

Phew! That was a dangerous question.

CW (00:02:16):

Cut to end the show if it was the wrong answer.

EW (00:02:17):

<laugh>

KC (00:02:20):

<laugh>

EW (00:02:20):

What kind of fake tattoos do you like best, and why?

KC (00:02:24):

I actually only prefer my fake tattoos.

CW (00:02:28):

Do you like to complete one project, or start a dozen?

KC (00:02:31):

Start a dozen.

EW (00:02:32):

If you could teach a college course, what would you want it to teach?

KC (00:02:35):

Watercolor painting.

CW (00:02:38):

Do you have a tip everyone should know?

KC (00:02:41):

Keep trying.

EW (00:02:41):

Okay, so now on to-

CW (00:02:45):

That was the lightningest of lightning rounds we have done.

EW (00:02:47):

It was short. Yes.

CW (00:02:48):

You said, "Make it short." <laugh>

EW (00:02:50):

Yes.

CW (00:02:50):

Most people do not listen to us.

EW (00:02:57):

<music> We have a quick break before we jump back in. If you are interested in how 3D printing is changing design engineering, Mouser Electronics has some great resources to check out. Their Empowering Innovation Together platform is taking a deep dive into additive manufacturing, that is 3D printing.

(00:03:16):

They are covering smarter production, faster prototyping and breakthrough materials that move ideas beyond prototypes into real world products. You will find podcasts, expert articles and videos to keep you informed and inspired. Sound like your thing? Head over to mouser.com/empowering-innovation and explore their latest content. Now, let us get back to the show. <music>

(00:03:43):

You grew up a maker, or a child of makers. How did you come into the whole maker space?

KC (00:03:57):

Sure. Some of my earliest memories, and I have talked about this a lot in various places, is being in my garage in the eighties in San Jose, California, the heart of Silicon Valley, helping my dad box graphic cards to go sell at Fry's Electronics.

(00:04:15):

On a step stool in this garage, putting things into foam and into boxes. There were graphic cards that my dad had designed, and that we were going to go and sell there, because that is how Fry's Electronics used to work.

(00:04:26):

And then obviously my mom also had an influence. She was more of a traditional maker. She likes to cook. She likes to do traditional art. But she also saw my passion for the stuff that my dad was doing.

(00:04:41):

We would get those cute little at-home robot kits, that used to be able to get. Like the ones where it had a robot that had wheels and- You could not control it, but it would run into a wall and it would hit a sensor, and then go off in another direction.

(00:04:54):

We used to do that type of stuff all the time. So from a very early age, I got to do a lot of, I think, things that kids of that time did not really get to. We were early adopters of technology. We had computers in the house super early on.

(00:05:10):

Also they were big sci-fi nuts. So we were watching "The Next Generation." I was a little sad you did not ask me if Data was my preferred robot. I know he is an android. It still counts. And "Red Dwarf," and all sorts of other kinds of influences in my life at a really early age.

EW (00:05:30):

Going back to the robots, I was surprised that Vicki did not get a nod, at least.

KC (00:05:36):

I get it. But also that show- Even though I took the moniker of TheSmallWonder, because it is fun. That show was objectively terrible <laugh>. The reason-

EW (00:05:48):

Wikipedia does say it is the worst sitcom of all time. And you know it is true on Wikipedia.

KC (00:05:53):

It is awful. It is awful. The reason-

CW (00:05:55):

I do not remember what- I used to watch that show, but I think it was only because it was on before something else, and I caught the last five minutes of it every time <laugh>.

KC (00:06:06):

Yeah. It is quite awful. The only reason why I took that moniker is because of that story of helping my dad do electronics in the garage.

(00:06:12):

My parents used to joke that I was a robot, made out of the greatest and latest technology of the early eighties. Which also explains why I am slowly breaking down over time. But people say it is aging. I think it is just a planned obsolescence, at this point.

EW (00:06:29):

Do you have an RS-232 under your left armpit?

CW (00:06:31):

<laugh>

KC (00:06:33):

I might. I just might. <laugh>

CW (00:06:37):

Not to belabor this too long, but I am curious a little bit about the graphics cards, because I- Were these for PCs or Apple IIs? Or?

KC (00:06:45):

God, I do not even remember, because I was like five.

CW (00:06:47):

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would probably be the time when Heathkit was a store you could actually go to. They had all the robot kits and radio stuff.

EW (00:06:56):

And RadioShack was...

CW (00:06:58):

RadioShack was Radio Shack.

EW (00:06:59):

Radio Shack.

CW (00:06:59):

Yeah.

KC (00:07:00):

Oh yeah. Loved Radio Shack. We used to go all the time.

EW (00:07:04):

But your degree is in graphic design?

KC (00:07:08):

It is a true story. I do not actually have a full fledged degree. I went to school and never finished. And I studied both communications and graphic design at the time.

EW (00:07:18):

And you said you- When I asked what kind of fake tattoos you like best, you said your own. Can you describe those for people who have not seen them?

KC (00:07:28):

Sure. I call them "Sprite Lights." They are essentially a sticker that sticks on your body, and it has LEDs underneath it. It takes traditional art and then lights it up, and makes it very beautiful and bright.

(00:07:42):

You would think that that would be bulky, but they are actually less than two millimeters thick. So they are extremely comfortable to wear, and they look just like they are on you, as if they are painted.

EW (00:07:55):

And they have a battery.

KC (00:07:57):

They do.

EW (00:07:59):

Tell me, is it ultra thin? Flexible? Tell me more about the batteries.

KC (00:08:05):

Yep. The batteries are made by Zinergy. They are a brand that I think is essentially UK based, but obviously have manufacturing capabilities in, I believe, China. They are about 0.7 millimeters thick, of that two millimeters I was talking about.

(00:08:22):

They use screen-printed technology. So the same type of methodology you would use to screen-print a T-shirt is what they use, but with battery chemicals. They are single use, but the exchange is that they are extremely safe.

(00:08:37):

So you have something like a lithium ion battery, but those have potential to get really hot. And when I was planning something to wear against your skin, I really did not want anything exploding, or getting too warm, or catching fire when you are wearing it.

(00:08:52):

So I exchanged the rechargeable capabilities of something that would last longer, with a single use battery that was extremely safe. You could literally cut it in half while you were wearing it and nothing would happen to you. There are no chemicals that leak out. There are no- There is nothing that can happen with those.

EW (00:09:15):

That is kind of amazing.

KC (00:09:18):

Yes. <laugh>

EW (00:09:21):

Then you also had- It does not feel like you put a sticker on. It does not feel like you put- It is more like a fake tattoo than a sticker, right? There is some flexibility, and it is on your skin.

KC (00:09:37):

Yeah. It does not feel really stiff. Part of that is thinking about the design of it. One, you do not want it too big. Because if it is too big, it could feel like a sticker, and tug against your skin and pull in weird ways.

(00:09:51):

The second part is you do not want sharp edges. Like a hard square would not do as great as a circle, or even a rounded rectangle. That helps conform to your body and go with natural movements as well.

(00:10:03):

Also partially because they are so thin and so flexible, that also really contributes to it feeling more natural on your body.

EW (00:10:14):

And then what are the- Okay, so we have 0.7 of the two millimeters is battery. And some small amount is sticky stuff. What else is in your stackup?

KC (00:10:30):

Yeah. So you start with the bottom layer, which is the sticky stuff, which is a medical grade pressure sensitive silicone adhesive base. It is hypoallergenic and really comfortable.

(00:10:42):

Then you go into, the battery sits right on top of that. On top of that is a flexible PCB board. It is super, super thin. And then on top of that is the sticker. And that is it.

EW (00:10:56):

So flexible. For some reason I thought this was stretchable.

KC (00:11:00):

So I went stretchable for a really long time, and then determined you do not actually need to be stretchable for this. But I did do an excessive amount of research and work into stretchable electronics, only to end up figuring out that I was over-engineering.

(00:11:15):

But I did learn a lot of really cool stuff. I think stretchable electronics are going to have an application in the future.

(00:11:22):

I think if you needed to go over a larger surface area than my light-up stickers, temporary tattoos do, you are going to need to start going into stretchable. So if I, for example, was to do a full back artwork of this, you would probably have to move into the stretchable area of things, as opposed to just flexible.

EW (00:11:44):

So let us talk about what those are. You get a flexible circuit from a vendor. What do you feel?

KC (00:11:53):

Tell me a little bit more about what you are asking.

EW (00:11:56):

Fair. Okay, so I have had stretchable circuits- Sorry, I have had flexible circuits, and they often feel- Well, they feel a lot like ZIF connector cables, because that is what they are. It is a plastic membrane. There is some metal on it. Lately there is plastic on both sides, so that the metal does not touch itself, which in the beginning that was not a thing. You just had to be careful.

(00:12:27):

<laugh> Sorry, where was I? Oh, but it feels like you took a credit card, you took a piece of plastic, and you just made it super thin. And so it is like transparencies, is kind of what it feels like to me.

CW (00:12:49):

Acetate.

EW (00:12:49):

Acetate, yeah. But it is that weight and flexibility, and that sharpness of edge actually.

KC (00:12:58):

Yeah, that is true. So when I first started I was basically taking acetate sheets and making my own flexible prototypes at home. We can talk a little bit more about this later, if you would like.

(00:13:09):

But the cost of small batch manufacturing, of getting PCBs, flexible PCBs, from somewhere like PCBWay or- What is that other one? JLC. It can be really expensive to do, even to just try to small batch prototype.

(00:13:28):

So I had to figure out how to do my own flexible circuits at home. So I did actually take essentially transparency sheets, some of the higher temperature resistant ones. I would cut out copper traces on my Silhouette cutter, one of those little paper cutters.

(00:13:47):

By the way, that dulls your blades really quickly. I would eat through them extremely quickly, because even if it is those thin copper metal, it is still metal, cutting metal, which makes it dull so fast.

(00:14:01):

But I would take that copper tape, which was adhesive on one side, and be able to stick it to the transparency sheet. Then use the Silhouette cutter again, in order to cut out the shapes and everything like that.

(00:14:11):

The key to getting around those sharp edges, is making sure that you have room around your circuit. So whatever you are sandwiching it between-

(00:14:19):

In the beginning I was doing silicone artwork, and then having a substrate on the back that possibly will give me cancer in my old age. It was from China and it was wild, but it was the same thing that you use in adhesive bras. I would coat the back with that and let it cure.

(00:14:36):

The key to getting around those sharp edges, was having it sandwiched around something that did not have sharp edges.

EW (00:14:43):

So I have a Cricut, which I think is similar to a Silhouette. Have you seen both?

KC (00:14:49):

Yeah, I have seen both. I really liked the Silhouette, because of the software that you could use in order to create your artwork to cut it out. I had tried to use the Cricut environment before, and found it a little too proprietary and kind of restrictive. Yeah.

EW (00:15:08):

Yeah. My Cricut, I had to replace the rubber wheels, and now it is very loud. I am trying to decide whether I am going to try to fix that, or get something new. You said, "Silhouette," and I was like, "Well, I should ask her."

KC (00:15:25):

The Silhouettes are great. I think that they might be falling a little bit to the wayside. I have stopped seeing as much of their products out in the wild, like at a hobby store, than I have the Cricut stuff. That said, they still have all of their stuff online. So as long as you do not mind doing online ordering, I think they are still an incredibly viable option.

EW (00:15:45):

Cool. Sorry everybody. I was more interested in origami than the podcast for a moment. Which actually- When you do cut out your circuits, do you put spaces in between? Do you have little cuts, so that the acetate can move more freely? I am thinking about kirigami, but I do not know if that is a term everybody knows.

KC (00:16:14):

Mm. It was not really particular about how I did my spacing or anything like that. The Silhouette has a really cool function, where it has a specific mat with different markers on it. So you take a picture of it, and then you load it onto your computer, and you can trace out where you want to cut things. Then you load it into the machine, and it just cuts according to those markers that it has and what you have done on the computer.

(00:16:40):

So it was really easy, because you have to go back and forth in this process. A lot of cutting out the copper traces, and then getting it onto the acetate, and then creating your outline for it, and making sure it aligns with your stickers. So there is a lot of loading and unloading, and trying to figure out where to place things. Because it had that picture mat with the markers, it became really easy. You did not really have to fuss that much with your layout.

EW (00:17:07):

Is this mostly vector programs that you are using? Or?

KC (00:17:10):

Yes.

EW (00:17:11):

Okay. Yeah. So that is how you do the drawing, is through the vector programs. Then the vector programs get translated into G-code. Then the Silhouette is basically a CNC, but with small knives and pens and other things.

KC (00:17:26):

Yep. That is correct for the acetate layer, the traces for the copper. But the artwork was never vector. I find vector to be sometimes constricting for what I would like to artistically do.

EW (00:17:41):

Well, especially if you are doing watercolor style things. I mean that is not a vector thing. What do you use for creating your art?

KC (00:17:50):

A lot of it is traditional methodologies. Then sometimes I will do digital coloring. It depends on what I am going for. But a lot of it starts with sketching by hand. Sometimes translating that over to a tablet.

(00:18:02):

The one that was in my final, my actual produced Sprite Light, that people could go buy out in the world for a little bit, was all traditional artwork. It was watercolor with pens.

EW (00:18:18):

I got some. They look kind of like a compass rose to me. That was intentional?

KC (00:18:24):

Yes, it absolutely was. I was looking for inspiration for our work. I wanted to do something that was meaningful for me.

(00:18:30):

My sister happens to have a compass tattoo. It does not look like the one that you have. But my sister and I have gotten really close over our adulthood mostly. I wanted to do something that was a tribute to somebody who has been a huge inspiration and love of my life. She has a compass tattoo, and I used that as a starting point for inspiration to create something.

EW (00:18:54):

But when I was looking around on the internet, I saw some with butterflies. They were very pretty. When can I have some of those?

CW (00:19:02):

<laugh>

KC (00:19:05):

<laugh> Everyone loves the butterflies. Those are early prototypes, and they were-

EW (00:19:09):

Flowers. Some subtle but cute series of sakura, cherry blossom flowers.

KC (00:19:19):

Yep. Yeah. The tricky part of where we ended up, with the needing to be able to do these in bulk, is that sometimes you have to get a little less elegant in your design. The butterflies, and some of the more subtle designs that you really liked, require a lot of transparent space.

(00:19:40):

That does not necessarily translate to what you are able to get manufactured for the PCBs. Having transparent PCBs, we are still a little bit away from being able to do that in mass production, at a cost that I could afford.

(00:19:56):

So even though I was able to get flexible PCBs produced in bulk, they had to have a solid background. Which makes them a little more prohibitive for what I am able to do.

EW (00:20:08):

What color is the background?

KC (00:20:11):

The background on the ones that you have for the compass, are actually white.

EW (00:20:16):

Okay. Well, my skin is so pale I would not notice.

KC (00:20:19):

Yeah. You also have to keep in mind batteries. So those batteries are-

EW (00:20:21):

Right. The battery would not be clear.

KC (00:20:24):

The battery would not be clear.

EW (00:20:25):

<laugh> Just occurred to me.

KC (00:20:25):

Which is also why it becomes different when you go to produce them. Some of the early ones you saw, I had not figured out a true battery solution yet. I was hiding coin cells underneath. In the pictures they look good. In real life, they are much more bulky.

(00:20:45):

The Zinergy batteries can only get so small. Because they are so thin, they need to be bigger.

(00:20:50):

Also you want to have a design that can be reused multiple times. So because there are ones that are like the circular size now, I could do basically any circular design, and have those batteries be used for it.

(00:21:06):

But if I was to do a butterfly, I would need them to design essentially a butterfly shaped battery. And okay, that is the only time I get to use that, because you need to use every centimeter, every millimeter of space you can, to get battery life out of it.

EW (00:21:21):

Yeah. So you are powering LEDs. LEDs of that size are relatively cheap to power, as far as energy budgets go. How did you figure out how many LEDs per square centimeter you could have?

KC (00:21:40):

A lot of trial and error. They do consume a small amount of energy. The hard part is that they require usually at least three volts, in order to get a reasonable brightness for them.

(00:21:53):

So it was less about battery life, and more about can I get these bright enough that I feel like this is an impactful thing that you can wear. Because you are not just wearing them at night. You are wearing them sometimes in the day, to go to something that you are going to. Or indoors, where they are still lighting. That was actually the bigger challenge.

(00:22:12):

I tried doing the online calculations for like, "Oh, how much battery do I need for x?" But really it came down to just running a lot of battery tests when I got in the units.

EW (00:22:27):

How do you do resistors at this scale? I am like, "Okay, so maybe you should consider making the LEDs not as bright, by adding a larger resistor. Then it would last longer. But that does not quite work."

(00:22:44):

Two millimeters. Now, as you have mentioned with the stack up, you must only have about one millimeter for the board. If that. I know LEDs come in very small sizes, but.

KC (00:22:58):

Mm-hmm. They are extremely small. The resistors come in equally small package sizes, as well. I want to say, it has been a while since I looked at it, but I think I ended up with a 0603.

(00:23:09):

Which is, if you are to look it up online and be like, "What size are LEDs?" And you look at- They are little grains of dirt. They are like, "Oh. Do not sneeze or cough while you are using these. Because they are just going to- You will never find them ever again." Also, you might inhale one. At that size, you never know. So just, you got to be careful.

CW (00:23:32):

The whole other product.

EW (00:23:33):

Do not snort the resistors.

KC (00:23:34):

Yeah. Do not snort the resistors or the LEDs. <laugh>

CW (00:23:39):

What is assembly like? Are you putting these together by hand? This is like you say, very, very small components, very flat surface, and a stack of things. How were these put together?

KC (00:23:55):

Yeah. For prototyping, back when I was still making my own boards at home, it was with a hot plate that I bought from Walmart. And a lot of praying. And very carefully watching when the- What is it? Solder would get shiny. Then turning it off, and pulling them off immediately, and praying that I did not ruin anything.

EW (00:24:17):

Wait. This was on the acetate?

KC (00:24:19):

Yes. Yeah.

EW (00:24:20):

Okay. There are so many things that can go wrong here, right? How many- Fire?

KC (00:24:24):

Yeah. You can melt your plastic. But nothing ever caught on fire.

CW (00:24:28):

Acetate does not burn. You are thinking of celluloid.

KC (00:24:30):

Yeah.

EW (00:24:30):

I am thinking of celluloid. Right. Okay.

KC (00:24:32):

Yeah. It could not catch on fire. But it could warp and melt, if you were not careful on watching it.

CW (00:24:37):

It could become an unintentional Shrinky Dink.

EW (00:24:38):

A Shrinky Dink. Yeah.

KC (00:24:40):

Yeah. Yeah. It was a wild balance between getting the solder to melt, not melting the adhesive that was holding on the copper, not getting that too hot. And also just getting your solder to actually stick your components to it. But it was possible, after a little trial and error, to find the right balance of it. It was not, in the grand scheme of things, too hard.

(00:25:01):

But when I went to go do the compass Sprite Lights designs that were funded by the Kickstarter, I was going to make hundreds of these. There was no way I was going to be doing that.

(00:25:12):

What I was able to do, is have PCB assembly actually done for me on the extremely thin flexible circuits that I designed from PCBWay. The key to that was panelizing my design. It was not just like one by one. I think there was nine of them on a panel. So they were able to do sheets of them.

(00:25:35):

It did mean when I got them back, I had to punch them out of the panels. I had to pull all of them out.

(00:25:41):

Then the assembly of the Sprite Lights themselves, of the medical tape layer, battery, circuit board and sticker, that was done by hand, while I watched- I think I watched the entirety of "The Lord of the Rings." Every single last one of them. Then I also watched "Harry Potter." And so-

EW (00:26:00):

That is a long build.

KC (00:26:02):

Yeah, it was a long build to do. I think it was around 500 units that I was done. I had created- I had 3D printed basically an assembly process. So they were templates of, "Line up this up here. Put this one here. Put that one there."

(00:26:15):

It was like stacking of little templates, so that I could get everything in exactly the right place, every single time. Because if you look at the compass design, the LEDs are very purposely on some of the points of the compass.

EW (00:26:29):

Okay. I understand why you made these, because they are so cool. And I understand why you would want to make them small. Your home process sounds difficult, but possible. What made you decide you wanted to sell these? I mean, building a small business like that. Kickstarters are not easy. Why did you- Why? Why? Why?

KC (00:26:55):

<laugh> I am one of those people, as you heard in the lightning round, who would prefer to start a dozen projects versus completing one project. Sprite Lights was my experiment into, "What if I did not stop?"

(00:27:06):

When I got into doing this project, it was like one of those bugs that you just could not get rid of. I would wake up thinking about it. It would be like, "How do I advance it to the next stage?" It was a problem that I really wanted to solve.

(00:27:19):

Somewhere around the six month mark of having just started into this- I believe it was in 2017 or 2018, of starting to do prototypes and really exploring this idea. I thought to myself, "What if this is the one that I take as far as I think I can possibly take, and just see where it goes. See what I am capable of?"

(00:27:39):

Even when I would hit roadblocks of not knowing the battery solution, for example- The batteries took I think four or five years for technology to catch up to what I actually needed to be done. Even when I hit those roadblocks, I would go into a different part of the problem I had to solve, and be like, "Okay. Well I will come back to that, and we will give it a little time and see what happens."

(00:28:01):

Why sell them? Because, well, I had not done that yet with it. I also got extremely lucky. Well, maybe a little bit of luck, and maybe a little bit of really hard work over the years. But I won a contest with Hackster.io for Sprite Lights. Part of the rewards was launching a Kickstarter, and having support and the help in order to do that. Since I won that contest, I was like, "Well. What happens if I do not stop? Let us try it. Let us see what happens."

EW (00:28:33):

And yet, you are going to do it again?

KC (00:28:36):

<laugh> Not currently. I am unfortunately a little bit on a hiatus with it. As we know, the world has become an extremely interesting place over the last few years here. Costs have become prohibited due to things like tariffs. So small batch electronics, like doing even 500 of these, still has a very small profit margin. That profit margin has been eaten up through shipping, through these tariffs, through a lot of things.

(00:29:04):

It would cost me money, or I would have to raise the price to something that I do not feel would be accessible. I would rather just not do them, than have them be behind such a barrier to be a luxury product. I would rather wait and think about it a while. Then maybe pick it up at a later time, where it makes a little more sense to do so.

EW (00:29:26):

Have you gotten stopped while wearing Sprite electronics in the wild?

KC (00:29:31):

Oh yeah, all the time. I did a lot of adhesive tests. Both for the Kickstarter, and then also in the prototype days. Like when I was trying hide batteries in various places. I wanted to make sure that these would stay on, if I went out for the night. If I went dancing. If I got drunk at a bar and was not the most careful with bumping into stuff. All sorts of scenarios.

(00:29:55):

People were like, "What in the world is that? And where do I get one?" So they have a huge appeal, because they are bright and they are shiny and they light up. And nobody has ever seen something like that before.

EW (00:30:09):

You worked with a sticker manufacturer. But that was just the top layer, right? You mentioned building it at home. I guess I was hoping you could tell me that there were sticker manufacturers that had learned enough from you, that they were going to do it on their own.

KC (00:30:24):

No. MakeStickers was a really, really great partner for the Kickstarter. I actually approached them on my own, because I had been using them for my prototypes, and found them to just a really good quality sticker. They had a lot of finishes that I liked, and they were thin, and they were durable.

(00:30:40):

I approached them when I started the Kickstarter and said, "Hey, I will brand the crap out of you. Would you like to be a sponsor?" They got back to me within a day and they are like, "Oh my God, this is amazing. Absolutely. We would love to do this." They were a great partner. But no, unfortunately no sticker manufacturer that I have seen, have figured out how to make light-up stickers yet.

EW (00:31:04):

If any sticker manufacturers are listening to this, please make light-up stickers.

KC (00:31:08):

<laugh>

EW (00:31:08):

You mentioned that you went down the whole stretchable circuit path, before you realized that it was not necessary. If you were going to do this again, would you reconsider that?

KC (00:31:24):

No. Because that was such a fun journey to go on. It was extremely frustrating at times, but also it felt like I was in cutting edge electronics in my house, which is such a neat feeling.

(00:31:39):

Also I learned just so much about electronics in general, by trying to do that, about the limitations of technology today, that I think really helped refine my future processes, even when I decided flexible was good enough instead of stretchable.

(00:31:54):

Also I got to smelt metal in my driveway during COVID, and cackle wildly while my neighbors were worried I was going to burn the entire neighborhood down. It was super, super fun.

EW (00:32:07):

Okay, we said that flexible circuits- We kind of made the analogy to acetate or transparency material, the plasticky stuff that wobbles. I am holding my hand and I am doing the-

CW (00:32:21):

Clear sheets of plastic.

EW (00:32:24):

But if we are talking about stretchable circuits, we are still talking about clear sheets of plastic. But they feel totally different.

CW (00:32:29):

Right. But I was just trying to describe what you were- Yeah.

EW (00:32:30):

They are softer than even cellophane or Saran Wrap. They are-

KC (00:32:36):

I like to think about it as the stretchy hands, that you used to throw against the wall and it would spread out and stick.

CW (00:32:42):

Gel kind of thing.

KC (00:32:43):

Or like the little things that you throw against the wall, and then they would just roll down on their own, because they are sticky and they would splat against it. That is way closer to what I was doing, when I was doing stretchable circuits.

EW (00:32:55):

But not slimy at all. Just sticky.

KC (00:32:58):

Yes, that is correct.

EW (00:33:00):

Okay, so smelting metal. What is the one that melts the spoon? Gal- Gallium?

KC (00:33:11):

Galinstan.

EW (00:33:13):

Galinstan is the brand name, right? It is a combination.

KC (00:33:21):

It might be. Okay. Might be right.

EW (00:33:25):

Gallium is the- Yeah. Gallium is the metal, the element that is-

CW (00:33:29):

Has a low melting point. You can melt it in your hand.

EW (00:33:31):

Has an extremely low melting point. If you ever see somebody have a spoon, and they are like, "Oh. Clink, clink. It is a real spoon," and then you put it in their coffee and it disappears, that is probably because it melted.

CW (00:33:43):

And do not drink that coffee.

EW (00:33:45):

It is heavy enough, you can drink a little bit.

CW (00:33:47):

Great. Great show.

EW (00:33:47):

It is a traditional magic trick.

KC (00:33:48):

It also tends to be- It is non-toxic, so you will not die. But I do not recommend it.

EW (00:33:53):

Yeah, we do not recommend this. So Galinstan is a mix of that and a couple other things, indium and tin. You can eat tin, but I do not know about indium, so let us just not eat this either. Okay. In fact, do not eat anything mentioned on this podcast.

(00:34:09):

Okay. Was this what you were smelting? Because that seems kind of easy.

KC (00:34:16):

Yes. That is absolutely what I was smelting.

EW (00:34:18):

Okay. Why?

CW (00:34:22):

<laugh>

KC (00:34:27):

<laugh> That is a great question. It was really expensive to buy already pre-made, to get the really good quality stuff. You can buy the super cheap magic trick stuff from Amazon or something. But its qualities were not super great, for trying to sandwich it between silicone and create circuits. There was something about it that just was even more difficult than normal.

(00:34:51):

I managed to get some of the high quality stuff, and I spent a lot of money on it to do it. I was like, "That is not practical." But it was significantly cheaper just to buy the three different metals I needed, and get a little camp stove going out in the driveway and make my own.

EW (00:35:08):

So the combination melts at -19 Celsius or -2 Fahrenheit. So-

CW (00:35:15):

Wait. Melts it, though?

EW (00:35:17):

It does say "minus."

KC (00:35:18):

I do not think that is right.

CW (00:35:19):

That does not sound right.

EW (00:35:20):

No, it does not. Wikipedia, what are you doing to me? Okay-

KC (00:35:24):

I do not remember the exact temperature, but it was achievable with a camp stove.

EW (00:35:27):

The next one says 11 C and 52 F. I do not know. Wikipedia is wrong. Somebody go fix it for me, please. Anyway, the combination of this is it melts, I want to say boiling water temperature. You said camp stove?

KC (00:35:45):

Yeah. Basically it was- A lot of what I do is not an extremely scientific. It is a lot of watching it and saying, "Hmm! That looks pretty right." So I did a little bit of that in my driveway.

(00:35:56):

I believe I had a thermometer that was in there, and reading it and everything. I do not remember the exact temperature, but when it got around to that, I pulled it off. But it was also a little bit of looking at it and seeing, "Does that look like combined melted metal? Okay, that looks good. Take it off the stove."

EW (00:36:14):

So that was what was replacing your previously Silhouette cut it out copper tape.

KC (00:36:22):

It was for a little bit. As it turns out, it is extremely hard to get anything to stay in place on a silicone base. I was using a silicone base for my artwork. I was using it as my adhesive. It was a body safe material, that was the heart and soul of Sprite Lights for a really long time, before I moved on to the actual sticker artwork.

(00:36:53):

To get anything to wet to stick to silicone is insane. I actually-

EW (00:36:58):

Wait!

KC (00:36:59):

End up stealing this technique from- I am going to butcher some names for you. Steven Nagels, Raf Ramakers, Kris Luyten, and Wim Deferme. They did a scientific paper on this for "Silicone devices: A scalable DIY approach for fabricating self-contained multi-layered soft circuits using microfluidics."

(00:37:03):

Which is a really fancy way of saying that they put this low melting point metal, and sandwiched it between layers of silicone, and used standard traditional electronics, components, embedded in that as well, to make really cool stretchable circuits.

(00:37:34):

They had significantly better equipment than I did, since they had an actual lab. I believe they had at least a small amount of funding for this. They were in school while they were doing this. I kind of stole their technique for doing it, but they had much more consistent results due to their equipment, than I did.

(00:37:53):

This was a rabbit hole that I went down for a little while. But it turns out I just did not have the technology at home, which is a very common barrier for home makers, in order to consistently do it.

EW (00:38:06):

Okay. So silicone. Not silicon, but with an "E" at the end.

KC (00:38:11):

Yep.

EW (00:38:11):

This is the stuff that goes on Silpats and other baking mats that-

CW (00:38:18):

High temperature.

EW (00:38:19):

Are high temperature and very, very non-sticky.

KC (00:38:25):

Mm-hmm. That is correct.

EW (00:38:25):

So you are trying to stick things to materials that are well known for being non-sticky?

KC (00:38:33):

That is correct. Because I like to be difficult.

CW (00:38:35):

<laugh>

EW (00:38:36):

Yes. Who does not? And somehow this metal might do that, if you have the right equipment?

KC (00:38:46):

Mm-hmm. That is correct. What it does, is it basically creates a channel of liquid inside. Because the one thing that silicone really loves to stick to, is itself. So if you have something in between it, like a channel of liquid metal- Very, very thin. Keep in mind it is like a painted line almost. And then you surround it by silicone on any other side of it. It becomes a little place where it just lives.

(00:39:14):

You can stretch it and it is self-healing. The metal will, because it is liquid at room temperature or warmer, it just stays there and it flows with it. That is what allows it to stretch. It is very- You could not do this with any metal, because you need it to be a liquid form.

(00:39:30):

You could beg the question of, "Could you use any other type of conductive liquid?" Potentially. But what was really interesting about galinstan, is it essentially wets the material. If you do it just right, it wets the material and stays in place.

(00:39:46):

So you do not have to pre-make a channel. You do not have to pump it in with a syringe or anything like that. You can literally paint it on using a template, if you manage to get the conditions just right, and it will stay in place while you put the other layer of silicone on top to trap it.

CW (00:40:01):

Hmm.

EW (00:40:04):

What if you did make a channel? What if I went up and took the Silpat that has gotten stained, and put it into my Cricut and made a little cut. Then I could put the galinstan into the little cut and then it would live in that channel. Then I would have to put, I guess another Silpat on top, so that it would stay there.

KC (00:40:25):

You can do that. Galinstan is not like water consistency. So trying to pipe it into something, you get a lot of beading, and it is a little unpredictable for how it comes out.

(00:40:37):

You could try to scrape it into it. But while galinstan will not wet something very well- Like it will not wet the silicone very well. It will stain the crap out of it, so it is not conductive, but now it is ugly. <laugh>

(00:40:52):

I did try that technique a couple of times. I would, say, 3D print a mold that had these little tiny channels raised out of it. I would put the silicone over it, and then I would peel it off. It was great, and I had my channels. But trying to get the galinstan in there, it was a nightmare

EW (00:41:13):

Huh. Because that was the other thing that silicone can do really well, is it is very, very easy to mold.

KC (00:41:16):

Yes.

EW (00:41:18):

So it seems like you should be able to do exactly what you tried. Now you are telling me it does not work. I believe you. I just wish it did. Did you try heating it up in that? Does it get wetter with heat? The metal.

KC (00:41:32):

Not really. Not really. Once it is in liquid form, it is in liquid form. If you had bigger channels, it would probably work just fine. But keep in mind that I was trying to- I mean, my nickname is "Smalls." I was trying to make it very small. So we were trying to do traditional traces within it, that were at most like a millimeter wide.

(00:41:54):

If you were to do, I do not know, three millimeters even, you could probably get away with it. So if you are looking for bigger channels- But then it gets kind of expensive, because even making my galinstan at home was not super cost conductive.

EW (00:42:10):

The galinstan is often considered a replacement for mercury in some things. I guess it is more the gallium is a replacement for mercury in thermometers.

(00:42:22):

You said it beads. So it is like mercury in that it will flow if there is enough of it. But it will bead if you only have a little bit. Then it makes the little round balls, and they go all over. Then you are like, "Oh my God, I just mercury poisoned the whole school." Wait, no.

KC (00:42:41):

<laugh> Yes, that is correct. Without the poisoning part, for galinstan.

EW (00:42:45):

But with galinstan, apparently it leaves a mark, so everybody knows you have done this.

KC (00:42:51):

Oh yeah. It is impossible to clean up, too. Once it is-

EW (00:42:53):

Great.

KC (00:42:54):

It does not absorb. It does not dilute. You cannot spray cleaner on it and wipe it off the table. I was experimenting with it, I would say a month or two ago, where I was trying to pipe it into very thin silicone tubing to make really stretchable wires, which works!

EW (00:43:10):

Yeah.

KC (00:43:10):

It is really cool and it definitely works. But I spilled a little bit on my table. I have wiped it and gotten it to the edge and gotten it off. But there are still certain gray marks on my desk that I always find here and there. Then you try to clean it and you think you have gotten it. Oh, it is a nightmare.

(00:43:28):

It is so hard to clean. So I recommend gloves and I recommend some kind of covering over your table, that you want to throw away when you are done. Like it is just- It is going to be there forever.

EW (00:43:40):

It is conductive, but not magnetic.

KC (00:43:44):

Mm-hmm.

EW (00:43:46):

Yeah. There is no easy way to fix that.

KC (00:43:48):

No.

EW (00:43:48):

All right then! But, people who are not necessarily doing this on their kitchen table- Again, do not eat anything in the podcast. Can makes these- I have seen videos of these stretchable circuits. They deform over a hundred percent, and then they snap right back, which I guess is what silicone does.

KC (00:44:17):

Mm-hmm.

EW (00:44:17):

I can see why you do not need this for tattoos. And yet, there has to be a use for it. I mean, other than the obvious medical uses. That is cool, but let us do something a lot more fun than that.

KC (00:44:32):

I think you could. I have thought about a lot about this, like, "What is the application for this?" I think anything that is conforming, that needs the ability adapt and move over time. So medical devices, I think this kind of technology could be really important for it, if you were doing large swaths of your body for monitoring or anything like that.

(00:44:51):

I also think that there is potentially a fashion element to this. Gloves. Socks. Anything that you have to pull on, and it has to stretch as you wear it. I think that there could be a really interesting application there.

EW (00:45:08):

Ooh. What if instead of the piano key lighting up, your finger lit up with the one that was supposed to go down?

CW (00:45:14):

<laugh>

KC (00:45:15):

Mm-hmm. Exactly. So there is so much really cool stuff. Anything where you just need complete freedom from wires, I think that this could be it.

EW (00:45:25):

I always need complete freedom for wires. The medical applications I saw when I was looking at it, were things like putting it on a joint, so that you can monitor if the joint is moving correctly or if the joint has moved too far or is otherwise stressed, for people doing physical therapy or recovery from injury. Which, given that they are made to wear for weeks on end, it is pretty darn cool.

(00:45:56):

But then how do you take this galinstan circuit, and this silicone stretchy stuff that it is put upon, that is the PCB, and then attach it to, I do not know, anything else?

KC (00:46:18):

<laugh> So that is where silicon-based adhesive comes in. What we have learned is that nothing likes to stick to silicone, except for silicone. It loves to stick to itself. So there is a huge array of different silicone based adhesives out there. Both for commercial uses, but also medical uses.

(00:46:40):

Those use what are generally called pressure based, or pressure sensitive, silicone adhesives. They are sticky, but also something about the pressing of them helps it adhere. They are made to stick to skin specifically. They are sweat resistant. They are hypoallergenic. They are all of those things that you would want for body application.

(00:47:03):

They can be a little hard to get your hands on, as an at-home maker. But if you were to have large scale funding for something like this, like some of the applications that you saw, they are definitely out there and available.

EW (00:47:18):

No, no. So one of the hard things with flex circuits, if you are attaching them to traditional electronics or traditional batteries, is that there has to be that connector, that is a pain. It is really a pain in my life, is this ZIF connector. So many problems. It is hard to solder the flex circuit onto a traditional board, because the flex circuit tends to melt.

(00:47:46):

Have you looked at how to do the stretchable circuits into a traditional circuit?

KC (00:47:55):

No, I have not really explored that avenue.

EW (00:47:59):

Okay. If you have and you are listening, please feel free to send me an email. I do not have to share it with anyone. I am just curious.

(00:48:05):

Okay. Stretchable circuits. Obvious skin based computing application. Also soft robotics, which is another place that silicone comes in a lot. Have you looked at any of that? Because that could be your next Kickstarter. I desperately need a small light up worm wandering around my living room.

KC (00:48:29):

I had gotten into companion bots a little bit ago.

EW (00:48:33):

Ah, yes. You did a fox, right?

KC (00:48:34):

I did do a fox. The entire purpose of that fox was to combine what felt like traditional puppeteering mechanics, the animatronics that you might find at a Chuck E. Cheese Pizza Show back in the eighties, with some more newer technology.

(00:48:51):

But I really wanted that a little uncanny valley, slightly unsettling, feeling to it. That was where I was going at the time. I learned a lot about robotics, animatronics, et cetera, making natural movements or unnatural movements, if you will.

(00:49:09):

I have thought a lot in some of my like, "Oh, I cannot sleep right now," kind of evenings that I get, about creating a completely flexible, squishy companion bot, combining what I have learned about the stretchable circuits.

(00:49:24):

It is part of why I was working on stretchable wiring with the galinstan a couple of months ago. Because I was thinking about how you could embed that into a silicone body, and then have everything just be really stretchy.

(00:49:39):

Like instead of you pet a companion bot and reacts to you, what if you squeezed a companion bot and it reacted to you? That would be so weird and kind of cool. <laugh>

EW (00:49:54):

Sorry <laugh>. My brain just wandered off into, "What if it was a lightning bug, and when you hugged it, its butt not only lit up, but also because you hugged it, you moved the space and it ballooned out a little bit too. That would be so cool!"

KC (00:50:09):

Sure.

EW (00:50:09):

Yeah. Okay. That would-

KC (00:50:11):

What if it started- What if it was an octopus? And when you patted its head or squished it a little bit, all its tentacles flailed around and they were squiggly. There is so much you could do.

EW (00:50:23):

Well in some of it you can do mechanically, and then just augment it with the electronics.

KC (00:50:29):

Mm-hmm.

EW (00:50:31):

Like the lightning bug. If you squish it, then that balloon action does not have to come from the electronics. It can come from the mechanical air. The same with the octopus. If you touch its head hard enough, it can put air into the tentacles. Then the electronics can measure that, and utilize the change in elasticity.

(00:50:55):

And, oh my God, I am not going to spend my life on this right now. I have so many other things going on.

KC (00:51:02):

One project or 12 projects? Which one are we doing? <laugh>

EW (00:51:06):

This is episode 512, so I feel like we have gotten one project down, and now we can move on to the other 11. That is so not true. I usually have at least 11 going on at any one time.

(00:51:21):

Okay. So one of the questions we got from a listener, was gallium in silicone tubes for flexible electronics. And there was the question of the stretchiness squeezing the gallium, which changes the resistance.

CW (00:51:36):

Mm.

EW (00:51:36):

Do you look at that? Or as you said, you make it work and do not worry about the rest of it?

KC (00:51:44):

I generally make it work and do not worry about the rest of it. However, when I was working recently on the stretchable wires, I was looking at resistance. Because resistance can be a trigger to make something happen. With like if you were to use a little Arduino board or something, and have some smart coding in it.

(00:52:03):

So what I was looking at was, is there a measurable resistance for when you stretch the wire? And if so, can that trigger some other kind of mechanical reaction? And the answer is yes. So it does change the resistance momentarily when you stretch it, even though it does not break the connectivity.

(00:52:18):

I have not gone too far down that rabbit hole. But it is definitely something that somebody could explore.

EW (00:52:26):

You have been talking about silicone. But are there other bases you have explored?

KC (00:52:34):

I have not gone too much into it, because I was really focused on silicone, because of how skin friendly it was. Basically, if there is somebody with a silicone allergy out there, it is extremely, extremely rare. So it was super safe for body application.

(00:52:50):

But honestly, I think you could look at anything else that is stretchy, and potentially have it embedded in it. For example, the wiring that I was working on to make stretchy is just like a regular rubber. It is not anything fancy.

CW (00:53:05):

Hmm.

EW (00:53:07):

Do they have stretchable wires? Should I go look on Amazon for stretchable?

KC (00:53:12):

Not that I have seen. Not for conductive wiring.

CW (00:53:14):

That is a difficult problem, I think.

KC (00:53:17):

Yeah, some people have gotten really clever, by how you can weave wires together. They have a stretch to them, because of how they are woven. Some people have done some really cool stuff with that, and created multi wires based on that. But they are also kind of bulky, to be honest, because they are essentially a woven bracelet.

(00:53:33):

But in my searching, I have not found much in the way of stretchable wires, because metal does not tend to like to stretch.

EW (00:53:43):

Well, I mentioned kirigami earlier. That is the fancy way of saying, "Cutting small designs in paper, so that it flexes in different ways."

(00:53:54):

So if you take a flex circuit and you run your trace back and forth- Let us go with the sine wave, because people know what that looks like. And then you cut out, so that the edge- So that the- Help me out here.

CW (00:54:16):

I am not an origamist.

EW (00:54:19):

You cut out the acetate-

CW (00:54:23):

Okay.

EW (00:54:25):

Flex circuit, not so that it follows the sine wave, although you can do that, by just putting in cuts where the sine wave is the furthest away from you. Can you picture that?

CW (00:54:39):

No.

EW (00:54:39):

No. Okay. So you have a sine wave.

CW (00:54:40):

Yeah.

EW (00:54:42):

Then as it goes up-

CW (00:54:44):

Yeah.

EW (00:54:45):

You cut below that. And as it goes down, you make a cut on the top. And as it goes up, you cut below it.

CW (00:54:51):

Okay.

EW (00:54:51):

So now you still have a sine wave that is full of metal, full of copper tape. But you also have the substrate it is on, has two holes for every cycle of the sine wave.

CW (00:55:06):

Okay.

KC (00:55:06):

I have seen something similar to that. I was at a Supercon a couple of years ago. You meet all sorts of interesting people. I forget the company name that this gentleman worked for, but he had a stretchable wristband, basically that was a series of six wires, extremely flat. I would say it was less than a millimeter thick.

(00:55:25):

When you looked at it closely, it was copper embedded into some kind of rubber or something like that. It was essentially the lines were sine waves. So the traces were sine waves. Very, very small ones, going from one end to the other, running the length of essentially this wristband.

(00:55:43):

They were sine waves. What that allowed for, was the stretching of the material that it was in. So you are not wrong that that is kind of the way to go. I do not know where that company is at. But essentially one end of the bracelet had pads so you could connect to those traces that ran through the material. It was really cool.

EW (00:56:02):

The advantage to doing that, is that you do get a stretchable wire. But whereas cutting out a sine wave might give you some stretchableness, it will not pull it back. But with the kirigami slices, it will pull it back for the most part. So it will go back to its original form. Yeah, I guess that is the way to phrase it.

(00:56:25):

That is what I have been thinking about doing for fabric mounted electronics. I see the conductive threads, and they have some stretch. But just not as much as I stretch my clothes apparently. So this having a flat thing that can stretch, seems better to me.

(00:56:53):

But now you have got me interested in gallium silicone tubes.

KC (00:56:57):

<laugh>

EW (00:57:00):

Then the ICs, the LEDs, the resistors. These are not stretchable. So do you just use really small ones?

KC (00:57:09):

Yeah. Just use really, really small ones. That is the key. Anything that is bigger and then you have to bend it, you risk popping it off the board. <laugh> The smallest area you can have the better, because then the flex of the surface does not really affect it.

EW (00:57:29):

But how do you solder things onto the gallium?

KC (00:57:37):

So that one you cannot solder. When it is embedded in the gallium, it is really- Okay. So if we are talking just being on a flexible board, smaller is better. If you are talking about being in the gallium, bigger is actually a little bit better. Because what happens is your gallium will try to leak from one end to the other. So it will basically bridge your circuit and short circuit your entire thing.

(00:58:03):

Which was another reason why it was not super great for my application, because the really tiny lights just did not create enough space. Because as we have learned, silicone does not like to stick to anything. That involves LEDs as well.

(00:58:16):

So you can treat the back of your components where the leads are not, like where the wires that connect to your gallium are not, with a chemical. I forget what it is. But you can coat the back of it, and it will help the silicone stick to it, so it does not allow a channel to form between things.

(00:58:37):

But when you have really small components, you are extremely prone to that happening. Which is why I went down a different pathway. It was like, "Ah. The more these people stretch things- They are going to wear it. They are going to pull it off. They are going to put it on. It is just going to break it over time. The wear on it is going to happen."

(00:58:55):

So when you are working with galinstan and doing your silicone embedding, go a little bit bigger than you might want to. Because it is going to allow you a better opportunity for it to not bridge the gap.

EW (00:59:11):

Have you tried wearing any of the silicone flex circuits? Are they hot?

KC (00:59:16):

They are not hot, because the heat tends to come- When the components so small, if your components are hot, it is because you are short circuiting. <laugh>

CW (00:59:25):

Right.

EW (00:59:27):

No. I just meant, my own body heat does not escape then.

KC (00:59:30):

Oh. Yeah, if it gets too big, you can get sweaty and it can get really warm. That is another reason why I also kept the Sprite Lights down to smaller sizes. Because the more silicone you have covering your body-

(00:59:42):

I do not know if you have ever worn one of those adhesive bras, but you pull it off and you are like, "Eww!" because it is all sweaty and gross inside of it from walking around. That is why you keep them small, so it is less likely to get too warm on you.

EW (00:59:57):

I am pretty sure at least half of our listenership, has never worn one of those silicone bras.

KC (01:00:01):

Well, they should give it a try. It is a hoot.

CW (01:00:03):

At least half.

EW (01:00:03):

<laugh>

KC (01:00:05):

It is a very natural look.

EW (01:00:10):

<laugh>

(01:00:10):

Let us see. I wanted to ask you real quick about the Bay Area Maker Faire. You went to that recently?

KC (01:00:16):

I did. Yeah, just a few weeks ago.

EW (01:00:19):

How was it?

KC (01:00:20):

Oh, it was fun. I believe this is the second year that it is on Mare Island, up in the Vallejo area. I went the first year also, and they were definitely still finding their way, when I went the first year. I would say it doubled in number of things to see and do from the previous year.

(01:00:39):

It had a full on dark room. It had the more commercial manufacturing area, where you could see- A lot of people do not have exposure to seeing the really big 3D printers. They had some of those on display printing stuff.

(01:00:50):

Then it just had a huge- They always embody the maker spirit at these kind of events. There was a lot of that going on. People just demonstrating cool stuff that they have made. Some people were selling stuff, which I always support. Buying from small makers. Support your community.

(01:01:10):

And then it just had a lot of people walking around, who had cool stuff that you could look at and talk to them about, because they brought out their projects that they just wanted people to see.

(01:01:18):

It also had some of the- I do not know if other folks had been to Maker Faires, but the Cupcakes were backing and forth.

EW (01:01:28):

I love the Cupcakes.

CW (01:01:28):

Oh. Wow.

KC (01:01:29):

The Cupcakes are so great. If you do not know what the Cupcakes are, they are life size- Or not life size. Life size is too small. But I mean huge cupcakes, that are mobile. They have little motors in them. People ride in them, and then their head sticks out of the cupcake, and they wear a little cupcake hat, and so they can see as they drive around.

(01:01:46):

It is just basically little vehicle Cupcakes cruising around the Maker Faire. They are a delight every time you see them. And the Cupcakes were there. So that was just a nice callback to the OG Maker Faires that used to happen.

EW (01:02:01):

The original Maker Faire. Where was it?

CW (01:02:07):

San Mateo.

EW (01:02:07):

San Mateo. You have been in the Bay Area for a long time. And you have been a maker for a long time. Did you go to those when they started?

KC (01:02:19):

A lot of my maker years were actually down in Los Angeles. I was in the Bay Area until very early adulthood, maybe my very early twenties. Then I went down to LA for around 15 to 20 years, for my career. It took me other places. So I would hit the one down in San Diego primarily, which was a tremendous Maker Faire. It was excellent.

EW (01:02:44):

What does a Chief Operating Officer do?

KC (01:02:48):

Whatever the company needs. <laugh> It is one of those roles that is like a Jill of many trades kind of role. For some people it means overseeing HR, finance and IT. For some people it means building operations. For some people it means all systems and sysadmining.

(01:03:06):

Sometimes it means prying open elevator doors, and figuring out how to get your people out of your trapped elevator. Because your building is from the 1930s, and you have college kids who are interns in there. And well, you are going to get them out. So it could mean just about-

CW (01:03:22):

Mm-hmm.

EW (01:03:24):

That seems like an odd example. <laugh>

KC (01:03:25):

It is very relevant to my recent experiences. <laugh> But it can mean just about anything a company needs to run operationally. To all the behind the scenes stuff, that enable the people actually doing the work in the company, to do that work without having roadblocks and barriers.

EW (01:03:46):

And it leaves you time for making.

KC (01:03:49):

<laugh> Not traditionally. But I set very specific work-life boundaries.

EW (01:03:55):

Katherine, are there any thoughts you would like to leave us with?

KC (01:03:58):

I think for all those listening out there, who want to make things and do things, and maybe do not have the traditional background of an electronics degree or engineering degree of some kind, do it anyways.

(01:04:10):

There are so many resources online. And wonderful communities online, on Discord, on Hackster, on Hackaday, where people have written and put really interesting things, that you can read about and learn.

(01:04:24):

It does not matter if you do not know anything, because that is half of the fun is finding it out. So do the impossible. Try to make the thing. The worst thing that happens is that your neighbors look at you funny, while you are smelting metal in your driveway. It is not that big of a deal.

EW (01:04:40):

Our guest has been Katherine Connell. You can find her on Hackster and at Hackaday as TheSmallWonder, or Smalls in other online communities.

CW (01:04:52):

Thanks, Katherine.

KC (01:04:53):

Thank you so much.

EW (01:04:55):

Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you to Simon and Leanna for their questions. They are in our Patreon Listener Slack group. And finally, thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show@embedded.fm or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.

(01:05:12):

Now a quote to leave you with, from Vicki the robot.

CW (01:05:17):

<laugh> Why?

EW (01:05:17):

"We do not have skeletons in our closet. They are in the back of the condo."