510: The Secret Chip
Transcript from 510: The Secret Chip with Christina Cyr, Christopher White, and Elecia White.
EW (00:00:06):
Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, alongside Christopher White. Our guest this week is Christina Cyr. We are going to talk about geometry, maybe awards, maybe starting a company.
CW (00:00:20):
Telephones.
EW (00:00:21):
Oh. And telephones.
CW (00:00:23):
Telephones. That is what they are called. Hello, Christina. Welcome. <laugh>
CC (00:00:27):
Hi. Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here.
EW (00:00:30):
Could you tell us about yourself, as if we met at, I do not know, Supercon lunch?
CC (00:00:35):
Oh. I am the CEO of dTOOR. I created The Cyrcle Phone. It is an Android phone with a round display. I have taught over 300 people how to build their own phone, at conferences and universities. And occasionally I do work on the side for other companies. I have helped them improve their quality and reliability on PCBs that involve communication.
EW (00:01:03):
We have lots of questions for actually all of that, I think. But first, we want to do lightning round. Are you ready?
CC (00:01:09):
No one is ever ready for this, but go ahead.
EW (00:01:14):
<laugh>
CW (00:01:16):
What is your favorite communication device, that is not a phone?
CC (00:01:20):
Oh, that is a great question. Radio. <laugh>
CW (00:01:24):
All right.
EW (00:01:24):
Favorite shape?
CC (00:01:25):
I love this question. Probably... I am trying to decide. Hexagon? Octagon? Octahedron dome? Buckyball? Yeah. One of those. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Sphere. I should say, "Sphere." Yeah. <laugh>
CW (00:01:49):
Favorite fictional robot?
CC (00:01:52):
Okay. So I had a list prepared. It went somewhere, but basically it starts off with I love vacuum robots, because it was the first time a robot can actually do something for me in real life.
EW (00:02:07):
That is not fictional.
CC (00:02:10):
It is not fictional. That is- Good point. Good point. So in movies, I love humanoids, because they are so intriguing. It is like all of the complexities of the social dilemmas and all that kind of stuff is so- Yeah, I love diving into that.
(00:02:29):
But my favorite hardware is Robot from the 2018 drama of "Lost in Space."
EW (00:02:37):
Oh, really.
CC (00:02:37):
I loved that series. So, yeah. I loved how they showed emotion on a blank screen, on the face. That was really intriguing to me.
CW (00:02:50):
Yeah, I thought I did a good job with that series.
CC (00:02:51):
Mm-hmm.
EW (00:02:54):
When you said, "Android," I was going to say, "Okay, like Data? Or like Murderbot?" but I think now you have kind of answered that with the "Lost in Space" robots.
CC (00:03:04):
Yeah! Just that emotion is amazing.
EW (00:03:08):
Favorite place to get batteries from?
CW (00:03:10):
<laugh>
CC (00:03:11):
Ohh! This is a great spot. So, what a great question. I do not think this is accessible so much anymore, especially after August 1st with all the tariffs and everything. But of course, going on Alibaba and looking for battery vendors. Then interviewing them, and asking them what they can provide and all that kind of stuff. So that has been my favorite.
(00:03:41):
I have some stories about that, because evidently you can ship batteries if they are installed in something. So when they would send samples, they would rip out a regular- They would pick a toy and rip out the batteries from the toy. And then install the lithium batteries, and an extra lithium battery to actually run the toy. So the toy would run under inspection.
(00:04:10):
But I would arrive, and I would get this cute- Like one was the Totoro mascot. A little nightlight that you could have by your desk. My kids loved them. They are fantastic. So I had never thought about that. That is a way that you could ship batteries installed in a device. Because they do not really define that very-
(00:04:36):
Anyways, I am not being- This is not a quick answer for lighting round.
EW (00:04:39):
<laugh>
CC (00:04:40):
But as a side note- And I did not put this in my notes. But I talked to somebody who worked for Battery Connectors, a battery connector company. She sat down and spent some time with me, and convinced me to switch from a PH connector, which everybody uses in all their maker boards, to an ADH connector. And it has transformed my life.
(00:05:06):
So, anybody, I highly recommend switching to the ADH- Because the PH one, you try to pull it out, to switch batteries or something, and it is difficult to pull out. And sometimes you pull out the wires, instead of pulling out the plug, and all these kinds of things. You do not have that problem with the ADH. It is a better connection. It is easier to get in and out for prototypes. And it takes up like a third of the space.
CW (00:05:36):
These are the variants of the JST connectors?
CC (00:05:39):
Yes. Yes.
CW (00:05:39):
Yeah. I think I have the wrong ones for all the things I am doing. Spark Fun actually sells a little tool to disconnect them.
CC (00:05:46):
Oh, for crimping?
CW (00:05:47):
No, to disconnect the connector, because it is so hard to do without destroying the crimp. <laugh>
CC (00:05:54):
Yes! That is valuable information. Okay. I will get that tool. Because I need it if I am trying out somebody else's. But yeah-
CW (00:06:02):
It is just a piece of plastic.
CC (00:06:02):
For anything that I build anymore. Yeah, they have better ratings for voltages and stuff. It is just- It is a vastly better tool. So, yeah. Any company I work with I am like, "You really consider switching to this if you can."
CW (00:06:22):
I am going to consider that her tip everyone should know.
CC (00:06:28):
<laugh> Yeah, yeah. That sounds great.
EW (00:06:33):
<music> We have a quick break before we jump back in. If you are interested in how 3D printing is changing design engineering, Mouser Electronics has some great resources to check out. Their Empowering Innovation Together platform is taking a deep dive into additive manufacturing, that is 3D printing.
(00:06:52):
They are covering smarter production, faster prototyping and breakthrough materials that move ideas beyond prototypes into real-world products. You will find podcasts, expert articles and videos to keep you informed and inspired. Sound like your thing? Head over to mouser.com/empowering-innovation and explore their latest content. Now let us get back to the show. <music>
(00:07:23):
Shall we go on to the longer questions?
CW (00:07:24):
Yeah. Let us do that.
CC (00:07:25):
Yes. Let us do that.
EW (00:07:27):
Okay. You mentioned dTOOR, which is spelled D, capital T, capital O, capital O, Capital R.
CC (00:07:35):
Yes.
CW (00:07:35):
Pronounced?
EW (00:07:39):
"Detour."
CW (00:07:39):
dTOOR. I get it now. Wow. These things take me sometimes years to get, so thank you for helping me with that.
CC (00:07:46):
<laugh> Yeah.
EW (00:07:47):
And you mentioned The Cyrcle Phone. How are those two things related? I did not quite understand.
CC (00:07:55):
That is a great question. So what we started with was, "Hey, we are making a phone with a round display." But there were these cool displays that were in the shape of hearts and stars. Maybe not a star. It is like if you have a bubbly star. It is more like a flower with the flower petals.
(00:08:19):
So yeah, we started seeing all these really cool displays and we are like, "Okay. So I think we can do- Once we get the software nailed down for The Cyrcle Phone, we know all the bits to change for these other shapes as well. So we could do all of these other cool collectible phones, and all these different shapes." So that was the initial thread.
(00:08:47):
Because of that, and I had to incorporate- So it is a long story. Because really I was just building this phone for myself, but then I could not buy parts unless I was a company. So then I had to incorporate, and blah, blah, blah.
(00:09:06):
The original question was the linkage. So originally the acronym for the company was "Designing The Opposite Of Rectangle." So we could design everything under the sun, any shape, any form, but it could not be the rectangle. Because that was what everybody else was building, and this is how we distinguished what we were doing apart from what everybody else was building.
(00:09:28):
And of course, since all of our co-founders are female, and we have a very diverse- We have had a very diverse collection of people that have worked on the phone. So we also thought it was a detour from other companies.
(00:09:43):
And we are actually a social purpose corporation, and had to file special paperwork for that, which means that you put people and the environment above profit. No investor really wants to see that, but <laugh> you really have a sincere earnest desire to make a better company.
(00:10:06):
So, yeah. So that was dTOOR. But the acronym, what it stood for, was also a little bit negative. So we actually have a newer slogan that developed six months later, and it is "Non-rectangular phones for non-rectangular people."
EW (00:10:28):
That would have been a more awkward acronym though.
CW (00:10:30):
<laugh>
CC (00:10:31):
Yes. So sometimes we do abbreviate it. So, non-rectangular phones, so it is NRP NRP. But that does not make sense at all.
CW (00:10:39):
Nerp, nerp.
CC (00:10:39):
Yep.
EW (00:10:42):
Okay. Social purpose corporation.
CC (00:10:44):
Yes.
EW (00:10:44):
This is US based. But is-
CC (00:10:50):
And it is only in some states. Sorry to interrupt. But, yeah.
EW (00:10:52):
Oh no, that is good. It is a for-profit business, like a normal corporation, but it also has a specific social or public benefit goal.
CC (00:11:03):
Yes. Yes. In general, companies who file as a social purpose corporation are generally environmentally focused. Our phone is environmentally focused as well. The enclosure is supposed to be biodegradable, and it is repair friendly, user repair friendly. So there are a lot of environmental aspects to it.
(00:11:33):
But being environmentally sound in the smartphone industry is really difficult.
CW (00:11:40):
Yeah.
EW (00:11:40):
<laugh> It seems impossible.
CC (00:11:41):
Yes, it does. But we still keep looking for avenues to do that. Hopefully we will talk about some of them on the podcast here.
EW (00:11:51):
It is funny because we only very recently talked to Steve Hinch, who made it a point to say that public corporations, ones that are-
CW (00:12:03):
Shareholder-
EW (00:12:03):
Shareholder-
CW (00:12:04):
Focused.
EW (00:12:04):
Focused ones, they have to do what is in the best interest of the shareholders.
CC (00:12:09):
Yes.
EW (00:12:09):
Not in the best interest of the future.
CW (00:12:10):
The best interest financially of the shareholders.
EW (00:12:13):
Not in the best interest of the workers.
CC (00:12:15):
Yes. Customers.
EW (00:12:17):
The customers.
CC (00:12:17):
Environment.
EW (00:12:17):
It has to be the shareholders, which is such a limited and limiting view.
CC (00:12:25):
Yes, I loved it when he said that. That was just really grounding to say, "Yes. That reflects everything that I have seen in the industry."
EW (00:12:36):
It reflects a lot of what is wrong with the industry.
CC (00:12:39):
Yes! Yes. It does.
EW (00:12:43):
That is kind of new.
CW (00:12:45):
No, it is not.
EW (00:12:46):
I thought before 2010 ish, there was not quite as much focus on that.
CW (00:12:54):
Hmmm.
CC (00:12:54):
Hmm.
CW (00:12:54):
I do not know that that is true.
EW (00:12:57):
All right, this is my imagination of-
CC (00:12:59):
No. No. I am thinking back and forth on that. Yeah.
CW (00:13:03):
I feel like I heard about fiduciary duty long before that.
CC (00:13:09):
I think we are becoming more and more aware of it-
EW (00:13:12):
Maybe.
CC (00:13:14):
In current years. But yeah, what was it before? Even in the 1920s, when they got the railroad up and running, was it in the best interest of the investors? Or? That is a really good question. Have to think about that longer.
CW (00:13:32):
You might be right. You see, I do not know. But I remember it being complained about somewhere before there.
EW (00:13:38):
I thought it got stricter recently.
CW (00:13:39):
Possible.
EW (00:13:42):
It is good to know that there is an alternative. But you said there is more paperwork.
CC (00:13:46):
Yes. But you do have to claim it as you- And submit formal documentation, when you incorporate. In addition to that, then you also have to have a social purpose corporation annual statement, and it is tied to your websites. So you have to have that at the bottom of your website. You need to have a link to that.
(00:14:13):
But I have to say that most corporations who file for SPC are not around two years later. <laugh> It is really a well-meaning filing. And then also if you are not in it for the investors, if you are in it for the environment, maybe you have sold all that product and then you close the business. I do not think it is worthless to do it.
(00:14:44):
I think it is worthwhile to do it. But maybe it is a factor of that particular setup that makes the company not be alive for very long. But we have been alive for ten years.
EW (00:15:00):
Do investors run screaming when you are near them?
CC (00:15:03):
<laugh> I was told that initially. But I think investors run screaming from hardware, faster than social purpose corporation. So, yeah. I think there are worse things that you could do, to pose your company to not be investor worthy.
EW (00:15:25):
How do you get funding for your company?
CC (00:15:30):
That is a good question. I actually do not. So that is the answer to that question.
EW (00:15:36):
Oh. But shipping hardware is really expensive. Are you entirely bootstrapped?
CC (00:15:41):
<sigh> Yes. It is entirely expensive. We have had several successful crowdfunding campaigns.
CW (00:15:47):
Okay.
CC (00:15:47):
Thank you to all of our backers, again and again and again. I appreciate you and it has been from the love of backers, and also just my family's determination.
EW (00:16:05):
Is The Cyrcle Phone for sale now?
CC (00:16:09):
Yes! If you go to The Cycle Phone website, then if you click the "Shop" button, it is available. We have one unit left. <laugh>
EW (00:16:22):
<laugh>
CW (00:16:25):
So when you say The Cyrcle Phone is available, that is literally.
EW (00:16:29):
"The" is doing the heavy lifting there.
CC (00:16:30):
And one of the global unit available. And I just realized going through inventory that we can actually put together a Japanese unit as well. So maybe you will see that on our website pretty soon. But because they are the last units available on the planet, yeah, they are listed at $10,000. So you have to really, really want it.
(00:16:56):
There are people who collect phones who have thousands of phones, and for those individuals it may be a worthwhile investment. Or it is also a great dev board. So for example, if you were developing a round display for your car that you wanted to release to the public, maybe we could work some sort of deal with you.
EW (00:17:26):
So is it a going concern, actually? I guess I should not have said, "Are they available?" but, "Are you planning to build a lot more? Are you in sales?" How...
CC (00:17:38):
That is a great question. So those were as many as we manufactured. We do actually have thousands of chips actually available still. We could manufacture more. But it is time to move on to the 5G. So these are all 4G phones. We are just waiting for the 5G chips to actually drop even further in price.
EW (00:18:11):
The Cyrcle Phone has won some pretty interesting awards. One of them was the CES Innovation Award. Could you tell us about that?
CC (00:18:21):
Yes. So the CES Innovation Award, I was so excited to go and pick it up. <laugh> I know that is not what you are asking about, but I have to relive this moment of getting to go- Designing a phone. This is actually the second phone.
(00:18:42):
So the first one was just a 2G phone. It was the prototype. I was testing it on people. They are like, "Actually, I want to buy this one." And I am like, "No, no, no, no. You want to wait for the 4G, really." "No, no, no, I want this one. This is great. It is so cute." It has a small display on it and everything.
(00:19:03):
To me, this is the real phone, the 4G phone. This is great. Running Android. Fantastic. When I went to go pick up the award, it meant a lot to me to be able to design something that someone recognized like that.
(00:19:19):
But I have to say in the industry, you have to apply for these awards. One of the things that I was dismayed about, was you actually have to pay money to submit the application, which I guess makes sense. They have to have a team of people reviewing these things. I cannot remember how much it is for CES.
(00:19:44):
But for Mobile World Congress, we did submit one year to be considered, and they did consider us. Unfortunately, we lost to the Fairphone. Well, fortunately, and unfortunately.
(00:19:54):
I love the Fairphone, and what they are doing is so fantastic. They are reviewing all the sourcing and making sure that it is ethical. They have replacement parts for your phone, so you can replace, for example, the camera, things like that. And they make sure that their phone is as environmentally friendly as possible, and still looks like a phone, a rectangular phone that you would see in somebody's hand.
EW (00:20:26):
It looks like an iPhone.
CC (00:20:28):
That being- Yes, it is wonderful. And I love the team. So in the industry, you get to know everybody who is kind of your parallel. I guess you could say your competitor or whatever, but I do not consider them competitors. I consider all of the fellow phone makers are like brethren, like siblings. We are all trying to do this impossible thing, in the face of just unbelievable odds.
(00:21:03):
So for the Mobile World Congress, I think it was- That year, it was like $600 that you had to pay just to be considered. It was interesting because the next year, I had never received anything like this before, but they reached out to me and said, "Can you please apply again?" <laugh> But at that point I was so bummed about the previous year, and I was like, "Uhh, I do not think we want to spend another chunk of change on this."
(00:21:35):
I do not know if that is the same for design awards and everything, but if you are in the smartphone industry, these are the kind of things that you have to pay for. Also, I could go into also paying for booths and all the shows. That is a whole another ball of wax.
EW (00:21:58):
Part of the reason that I know you went through some of that, was because I asked you before the show started. I have been looking at podcast awards.
CC (00:22:05):
Oh, yes.
EW (00:22:10):
Because Steve Hinch says he is an award-winning author. And I was jealous.
CC (00:22:14):
<laugh> Yes, exactly. And you are like- Exactly.
EW (00:22:16):
Why cannot I have an award? And it is like, "I do not care what the award is."
CW (00:22:21):
I will make you an award.
EW (00:22:22):
Yeah.
CC (00:22:22):
<laugh>
CW (00:22:24):
3D print you something nice. I will spray paint it with some gold.
CC (00:22:28):
And then really- Yes! It helps, because I happen to be in these meetings with- So I am part of the CTA Wireless Division board meetings, and it is hilarious. It is like Verizon and there is Qualcomm and there is Samsung, and then there is me. <laugh>
(00:22:51):
This room is filled with only 20 people. And I am like, "Okay." But I am talking to the Qualcomm guys and I am like, "Hey, I know it is hard to get chips and everything, but do you have anything for an award-winning designer?" kind of thing.
(00:23:05):
So it does pay off, I think, to fill out all these forms. Because you have to fill out so many different pieces of paperwork. Fortunately, the one for CES, it is all in one questionnaire. But you have to say why your product is of course notable, but you have to fill out all these other details.
(00:23:31):
It is just- It took a lot of work. It is a lot of time. I would rather be building the next phone. Yeah. But it is worth it to be able to add that to your belt. So I totally encourage you to do that.
EW (00:23:44):
It is worth it? Just so I can say "award-winning"? Could not Christopher just go buy me a blue ribbon?
CW (00:23:50):
I can. Do not know if it will work the same for you.
CC (00:23:55):
I know. And I wonder- Once I went through the process- If you get an award, you are like, "Did they just give these to everybody now? Because I just got one," that kind of thing. But it is hard. It is hard to get an award, because you think of there are- How many startups are there at CES? There are like-
CW (00:24:19):
All of them.
CC (00:24:20):
I know. One year there was 4,000.
CW (00:24:21):
Oh my God.
CC (00:24:23):
And they only give away, I do not know, less than a hundred awards. Maybe even less than that.
EW (00:24:33):
But does that mean that most of those 4,000 paid to be in the running? My goodness, you could make a lot of money! I take it back. I do not want to get an award.
CW (00:24:42):
You do not want to get award. That is right.
EW (00:24:44):
I want to start giving out the awards. Please apply.
CC (00:24:47):
<laugh> Exactly. Exactly. I was talking to my friend last night and I was like- Because we also do- In the past, we have done philanthropy galas and raising money for organizations and all this kind of stuff.
(00:25:02):
I am like, "I used to look at the people who receive the award. Now I start focusing on who gives the award. Or who looks for these people to give the award to, if there is no formal award application process." Basically these people are the historians of life who designate like, "Oh, this person should receive this award." Like, the Nobel Prize is like- Do they- Who funds that?
CW (00:25:32):
Dynamite, as far as I remember.
CC (00:25:34):
<laugh>
EW (00:25:37):
Now you apply to be- People apply-
CW (00:25:40):
No, they get nominated.
EW (00:25:40):
They get nominated.
CW (00:25:42):
You do not apply for your own award for Nobel.
CC (00:25:44):
Right. That is right. That is right. And then it has to be people who are- I guess you could talk to your friend and say, "Hey, can you please nominate me for this?" But people who get nominated out of the blue-
(00:25:54):
We are totally off topic. What is the next question?
CW (00:25:59):
Should Elecia start the Embedies? We can work on a name.
EW (00:26:02):
The Embedies?
CC (00:26:02):
Like groupies? We can follow you around in a little VW trailer.
CW (00:26:07):
No, no. This would be-
EW (00:26:08):
The awards.
CW (00:26:10):
The awards. The Embedies. No, that is bad. That is bad. I will think of something better.
CC (00:26:14):
Oh, that would be so cool! Yes! You should absolutely do that.
EW (00:26:16):
<laugh>
CW (00:26:18):
And we could give it to big corporations.
EW (00:26:20):
Right. Right.
CW (00:26:21):
Like best microcontroller. It would be like Nordic versus ST versus-
CC (00:26:25):
Yes, yes. I have some candidates. Some nominations.
EW (00:26:28):
That would be so cool.
CC (00:26:31):
That would be so cool, because-
CW (00:26:32):
They would have to reapply every year.
EW (00:26:33):
Oh yeah. And in order to get best IMU, you definitely have to show me that code.
CC (00:26:42):
Oh my gosh, that is so fantastic. Yes! Please do this. Yeah, I think so. Because otherwise, how do you know which is the best chip really out there? For example, I am at conferences and I feel like a drug dealer. I am like, "Okay, for GNSS, I heard the Sony- The Sony chip is totally low in power usage. But I hear there is another one on the street that is even lower."
CW (00:27:12):
The secret chip. <laugh>
CC (00:27:14):
Exactly. The secret chip kind of thing.
EW (00:27:16):
I have done this. I have done the secret chip.
CW (00:27:20):
I have used secret chips. We did at Fitbit.
CC (00:27:22):
Yes! Yes!
EW (00:27:22):
But I mean the whole- When u-blox came out with some of the combined chip sets they have, and I was like, "No, no. You got to wait a month. I promise you it will be worth it. Do not buy the two chip sets. It is not going to be good."
CC (00:27:41):
There are also chips that are not available to the public. You have to be shipping eight million units.
EW (00:27:47):
Oh. Qualcomm.
CC (00:27:47):
Yeah. I went to one company that was, and did some work for them, and they are shipping like eight million units. The weight of that, that you could throw around in the industry. Everybody wanted to meet with me at CES.
(00:28:01):
I was like, "Oh my gosh. There are these chips out here? How come I have never heard of these? These are incredible," kind of thing. And new companies coming on the block. Everybody wanted to talk to me and I was like, "I want to talk to you. This is fantastic!"
CW (00:28:22):
I just remember being in some meetings with some very nice gentlemen from Toshiba. They had a chip that we used at Fitbit, which I can say now because I have been gone there million years. And it is not even Fitbit anymore, so who cares?
(00:28:32):
It was a Toshiba chip. It was the only one in the world that had a little 2D graphics engine at the time, and all this great stuff. And it was not publicly available at all. We were the only customer.
(00:28:46):
We had made them do silicon changes, and all sorts of stuff, and go back and forth. They sent us a simulator when they did not have- It was amazing. I had never done anything like that before.
CC (00:28:54):
Yes. It is amazing.
CW (00:28:55):
Yeah, there are definitely chips out there. It is like, "Yeah, we have this. Nobody buys it. But it might be perfect for you." <laugh>
CC (00:29:03):
<laugh> And sometimes it is. It is exactly what you need. And you are like, "Okay, yes. Can I get eight million?" They are like, "Yeah. In about 18 months. Yeah."
(00:29:12):
It is a different world. It is like living impoverished on the streets, and then suddenly getting to go to- What is the Buckingham Palace, or whatever?
EW (00:29:27):
Like the Buckingham Palace?
CC (00:29:27):
Yeah.
EW (00:29:27):
<laugh>
CC (00:29:30):
Exactly. <laugh> Exactly. I was tripping over the name in my mind. I am like, "Is it the Bucking- Yes, it is the Buckingham Palace." So yeah. Next question, please.
CW (00:29:41):
<laugh>
EW (00:29:44):
The social purpose for your corporation deals with environmental concerns.
CC (00:29:49):
Yes.
EW (00:29:52):
One of the things I saw when I was reading about The Cyrcle Phone, was about lithium battery recycling?
CW (00:29:57):
Hm. Mm-hmm.
CC (00:29:57):
Yes!
EW (00:29:57):
Tell me all.
CC (00:30:02):
Yes! I want to talk about this so bad. I am really excited about the possibilities of making lithium batteries from recycled lithium. There is actually more lithium in a ton of iPhones, or let us just be generic. There is more lithium in a ton of smartphones, than there is in a ton of raw lithium ore.
CW (00:30:36):
Okay.
CC (00:30:36):
So when you think about that.
EW (00:30:40):
But which one is more easily recoverable?
CC (00:30:43):
That is a good point. Actually raw lithium ore is not that easily recoverable, because it involves vast amounts of water.
EW (00:30:52):
<groan>
CC (00:30:52):
Yeah. It dehydrates the towns around it and causes this huge environmental impact. There are programs. I think the Gates Foundation is working on one research project that uses an eighth of the water. But really, let us not do- We have all of these used phones on the earth that we could be reclaiming, reclaiming the lithium from.
(00:31:23):
The second piece of the puzzle. 2021 was the first year that we could make batteries from recycled lithium more cheaply. Am I using that correctly? Cheaper than we could from raw lithium ore. But at scale. You had to do 30 to 70,000 units. So it was not for a maker individual. But definitely for any company who is involved in large scale industry, this would be a great path.
(00:31:58):
So the second important piece of the puzzle, is that in 2021, as of 2021, the recycling of lithium batteries became better. How it became better, was that normally they would just grind the entire lithium pouch pack from a smartphone.
(00:32:18):
Lithium pouches have a little circuit board on the top to regulate the temperature. So basically not only were you grinding the lithium pack, but you were grinding everything in that PCB. So now recyclers know to remove that PCB before they grind the pack.
(00:32:39):
The pack only has four or five elements in it. And so because of that, it is able to be recycled a lot easier than previously. Those elements are able to be isolated a lot easier.
(00:32:53):
If you think about it, think about the possibilities. If you are refining that lithium one more time, think about efficient those batteries could be. Just in theory. I am not saying that there is research or scientific evidence out there right now. But just probably, <laugh> if you refine it one more time, it is going to be more pure, more efficient. And you are recycling-
(00:33:23):
Because some consumers do not want use recycled materials. But if you are refining it one more time for metals, it is good.
EW (00:33:34):
Okay, wait a minute. I can understand not wanting somebody else's refurbished tennis shoes.
CC (00:33:39):
Right.
CW (00:33:41):
You do not wear tennis shoes.
EW (00:33:44):
I have ordered tennis shoes.
CW (00:33:45):
You do not want anybody's tennis shoes. <laugh>
EW (00:33:48):
But recycled batteries-
CW (00:33:52):
Recycled metal.
EW (00:33:54):
And metal. That seems like-
CW (00:33:54):
We have crossed that with aluminum. People are okay with aluminum.
CC (00:33:57):
Exactly. And steel. Like 90% of steel-
EW (00:34:01):
Is recycled?
CC (00:34:02):
Is recycled.
EW (00:34:02):
Hmm.
CC (00:34:02):
Mm-hmm.
CW (00:34:04):
A lot of batteries, for car batteries especially, they are done when they are at 80% capacity, when they are still usable for storage infrastructure. So you can just take those batteries wholesale and keep using them somewhere else.
EW (00:34:18):
Did this not cause a fire near us recently?
CW (00:34:21):
That is true of all lithium batteries.
CC (00:34:23):
Yes.
CW (00:34:25):
That is a separate issue.
CC (00:34:26):
Fires are because people do not know to recycle their phones outside of the regular trash waste stream. There is actually movement in the- Let me back up a little bit. In 2021, I was really excited about this and I thought, "What smartphone manufacturer is dealing in these volumes, and we can pitch them?" And they said that, "This is a fabulous idea. It is too early for us."
(00:35:02):
And I said, "You are competing against this other smartphone company who is bragging about this particular piece in their phone, and it takes up less than 1% of the weight by volume. If you use a battery from recycled lithium, your phone will suddenly be 30% eco-friendly, just by weight."
EW (00:35:29):
Think of the awards!
CW (00:35:29):
<laugh>
CC (00:35:32):
Think of the awards. Exactly. And they are like, "No, no, it is too early." But at CES 20- Let us see. This was 2025. 2024? They announced that they were finally diving into batteries made from recycled lithium.
CW (00:35:51):
So now I know which company it was not. <laugh>
EW (00:35:53):
<laugh>
CC (00:35:58):
In addition to that, I have heard nothing since then from them. But I think it is a long process. We were offering to make 20,000 units and to be able to substitute those batteries. Make them completely to the specs that they had for one of the lines of phones. I recommended it for their second tier phones.
(00:36:23):
We were going to make it here in the United States. There is a battery recycler in Texas, Austin, Texas, who recycles only three versions of this manufacturer's phones. They know exactly what the plastics are made of, so they can actually offer those plastics for sale again. And they do a great job of recycling the lithium.
(00:36:51):
Then we had a smelter on the east coast, to be able to smelt the batteries. And then we had a manufacturer, I think in New Jersey, for manufacturing the batteries. So we were all ready to go. But yeah, hopefully since they work with different vendors, I am sure they are working with their vendors at this time.
(00:37:11):
Moving on from that, I approached Bunny Huang. I said, "Gosh, I would really like to do- Would it not be cool to do a crowdfunding effort, to make this recycled battery from recycled lithium?" But I am like, "All these maker projects have different lithium pouches, different sizes, different requirements."
(00:37:38):
And then he is like, "Oh! Well why do you not do that 18650 battery? Because that is standardized. People would buy lots of those." And I am like, "I loved you so much before this moment, and then you have just come up with this brilliant idea! This idea that I have been thinking about for over a year." I am like, "Thanks."
(00:38:07):
We were at the Crowd Supply Teardown, and he is like, "And you could do it through Crowd Supply. And because with their vendor, they have to- Whatever you sell through the crowdfunding campaign, they actually have to buy the same amount, to store to sell to average consumers."
(00:38:25):
I am like, "Oh my gosh, you just doubled my MOQ." It was amazing. Yeah, he is amazing. Except for my chagrin, <laugh> him coming up with the best solution right away. So if you see another crowdfunding campaign notice from me in the future, it may be for that.
(00:38:50):
But there was one more note on the lithium batteries. The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act requires the EPA in the US Department of Energy, the DOE, to develop a national EPR framework for batteries. That addresses battery recycling goals, cost structures for mandatory recycling, reporting requirements, product design, collection models, and transportation of collected materials.
(00:39:16):
The kickoff was in April, 2025. But it was talked about, bubbling to the surface, all in 2024. So if you are into batteries in any way or just even slightly interested. I will send this link to Elecia to add to the show notes for the epa.gov, so that you can join the meetings.
(00:39:46):
I have learned so much from these meetings, about collection practices and preventing fires. How many fires have been started just in the last couple years, from lithium batteries. How there is going to be more education to the consumer about take back programs, of course for OEMs. But also how to recycle just anything with a lithium battery. More battery collection centers will be stood up in the next couple of years, because of this.
(00:40:20):
I am really excited to see this, because it also means that these items can be recycled even better in the future. So I have hope for our future, for our future electronics.
EW (00:40:36):
I have some listener questions.
CC (00:40:39):
Yes.
EW (00:40:42):
Siji asked- Siji asked all of these, okay?
CW (00:40:42):
<laugh>
EW (00:40:42):
She was the only one I talked to. "How did you continue to grow technically as an engineer after you left college?"
CC (00:40:53):
That is a great question. I bounced from technical job to technical job. I would change jobs every year.
EW (00:41:06):
Oof! Kind of fun. I mean, as a consultant, yeah, I do that.
CC (00:41:12):
But it was a myriad of things, because my degrees are in biochemistry and physics. And because of that, and because of some-
EW (00:41:23):
Wait a minute. Biochemistry and physics, with a side of Japanese, right?
CC (00:41:26):
Yes. Yes. This is true. What happened was- For example, I was writing- In college during the summers, I would write testing procedures for testing piping aboard nuclear submarines.
EW (00:41:41):
Sure.
CC (00:41:41):
<laugh> Yeah, exactly. When they would come in for overhaul, they would rip out all the guts. Then they would put everything back, put all the piping back, and they had to make sure that nothing leaked. So it would be for oil, water, air, and I would be the one writing all those testing procedures. I do not know. I was like, 19.
CW (00:42:04):
Why? Why you?
CC (00:42:07):
Because a friend of mine had the job previously and he is like, "Hey, I really like this job. It was really cool, but I am moving on to this other job. Can I recommend your name?" I was like, "Yes! Please. I would love to give this a try." Yeah, so I did that for a year.
(00:42:28):
I did- I worked on clinical trials for the medicines that people take for AIDS today. The triple drug combination first came out, and I was one of the three techs who got to see the results.
CW (00:42:43):
Oh. Wow.
CC (00:42:45):
I was really fortunate, because I added biochemistry midway through my college education. By the way, I went to Occidental. Go Oxy. I know you guys went to Mudd. And there are tunnels underneath Occidental! Anyways. So cool. But anyways.
(00:43:10):
I took all the sciences there, except for geology. But anyways, one of the instructors for biochemistry had just graduated with her PhD and knew this new technique, PCR. So we learned PCR in the lab. So I got to go do this amazing thing for this research laboratory. I would just go to work, and PCR was not as automated as it is today. It would be like a ten hour shift.
(00:43:41):
So you would spin the samples and do all this stuff, and at the end of the day you see the results. I would just start crying. And the guys over that would do the blue ELISA test would just be like, "I know these patients are testing negative on the blue ELISA now. It is just incredible." Up to then we just had- What was it? AZT?
CW (00:44:05):
That was it, right? Yeah.
CC (00:44:07):
It would just buy you 12 months. Yeah. It is just amazing. I am so proud of- It is almost like I designed the medicines myself, and it is not. I just happened to be a techie.
CW (00:44:23):
It is cool to be present at those moments. Yeah.
CC (00:44:25):
Yes, at those moments in history. I worked down in Los Angeles, was a laboratory for the three main doctors' offices that collected all the samples for people with HIV. That was an amazing job.
(00:44:43):
Then I went through a billion different other jobs. But the first job that I actually had my year annual review in, was I was working on Japanese software at Microsoft. My manager was like, "You are shaking." I am like, "This is my first annual review I have ever met."
(00:45:08):
But it was a great opportunity to work with really smart people, and have your job change every three or four months. There would always be new techniques, new things that they were going to try. That was an invigorating environment.
(00:45:27):
Then I had kids, and I felt like my world stopped for ten years. I took care of the kids for ten years.
(00:45:37):
Then I wanted to build this phone. I started building hobby phone after hobby phone at a makerspace in downtown Seattle, called Metrix. It was open for ten years. It was a huge incubator for lots of startup CEOs. I met a lot of incredible people there. But pretty soon, like I said, I could not get the parts unless I had a company. So I kind of fell into it.
(00:46:04):
But I have to say, raising kids, it was really daunting being so technical leading up to it. And then thinking about getting into the job force again, was just an insurmountable activity. I would show up at pick up, to go pick up my kids, and I would be with these other stay at home spouses, or other stay at home parents who had- Like this one woman had a PhD in chemistry and she had four boys, and she is like, "Yeah, I am not going back to that." <laugh>
(00:46:45):
Just because it is so- We would talk about our technical degrees, and how hard it would be to enter the workforce again. But once I was in the startup arena, I saw how easy it could be to onboard to a startup who is working on new technology. Because a lot of startups do not have a lot of money. They only need you for ten hours a week, can only pay you for that amount, and you are learning something new.
(00:47:13):
If I had only known, I would have gone back to the workforce probably at least five years earlier. I could have worked while my kids were in school, and onboarded that way. So I wish there was some onboarding for people who decide to stay home and take care of their kids, but have worked in the technical industry. Because we have incredible minds. You start to see things a little bit differently after having kids too.
(00:47:41):
I have some onboarding tips for people. Check out, I think it is called "Wanderlust" [Wellfound] now. It used to be called "AngelList." It is a list of jobs available for startups. Then cross-reference that with Crunchbase, and make sure the startup got funded recently. Those are great places to not only apply for that job, just contact them directly and say, "Hey. This was my background. I am interested in your product. Where could I fit in? How could I help?" Kind of thing.
EW (00:48:20):
AngelList became WanderList?
CC (00:48:23):
Yes. It was hard for me to keep up with. I think it is Wanderlust?
CW (00:48:29):
Yeah, because AngelList seems to be some sort of other thing now.
CC (00:48:32):
Right.
CW (00:48:32):
Building infrastructure, powering startup economy, whatever that means.
CC (00:48:37):
Yes. It really veered. Oh, "Wellfound," excuse me, is the name.
EW (00:48:42):
Oh. Wellfound.
CW (00:48:42):
Thought they had just gone away. Okay. Good.
CC (00:48:43):
Mm-hmm.
CW (00:48:43):
Search for "guitar pedal embedded development jobs."
CC (00:48:49):
<laugh>
EW (00:48:52):
Sorry. I am going to cut this part. I think it is really important for people to who are out of the workforce, to realize that you do not have to jump in the pool over your head. You can dip your toe in.
CC (00:49:08):
This is an important point.
EW (00:49:11):
The startups are actually- It is easy to get sucked into them. You should realize that if you hit a good startup and they grow really fast, they are going to want you to work for them.
CC (00:49:20):
Truly.
EW (00:49:21):
But for a lot of startups, a little bit of help is enough.
CC (00:49:26):
Yes.
EW (00:49:26):
And if you are doing it for your intellectual curiosity, you might be able to do some work for a lower rate. Do not devalue yourself. But you can do pro bono work that is interesting to you, without devaluing what will be the rate you have, when you go back to a full-time job.
CC (00:49:52):
Indeed. And nine out of ten startups actually fail.
EW (00:49:56):
Right.
CC (00:49:56):
So the chance that you are going to be a part of a startup that actually succeeds, is rare. But, you will learn so much just in even the first six months that you work there. About business. You will learn about the technology that they are working on. You will get to meet interesting people.
(00:50:20):
When I first started, I realized it was not how much cash I had, but who I knew to ask about these important technical topics. That was actually a better currency than the dollar.
EW (00:50:44):
It gives you access to people who have done it before. Whether or not that turns into a formal mentorship relationship. Or if it just turns into a, "I got a weird call from some investor. Have you ever used them?" And the other person says, "Stay away." That sort of information is really worth it.
CC (00:51:08):
This is true. In particular in hardware, when you are pitching investors- So the typical number for pitching investors until you get funded for software is, the average number is like 30 to 45. But for hardware, it is 149. So you have to pitch a lot of investors And that is if you know what you are doing.
(00:51:34):
Not the investor who invested $10,000 last year. You have to wade through a lot of those investors, to get to the ones who are actually investing, not hundreds of thousands dollars, but actually millions of dollars. Because hardware is expensive. It is really expensive.
(00:51:58):
Those investors are few and far between. I am blanking on the name. Crunchbase of course is a place to go. But there is- Oh, I am sorry, I will put it in the notes later. But there-
(00:52:14):
PitchBook is definitely the place to go. To get access to PitchBook- It is a repository of who is invested in what. It is very reliable. They do their research. They were bought by Morningstar years ago. Their information is really solid.
(00:52:34):
However, to get a subscription, it is like $5,000 per month. Yet, if you are an alumni or a college student, or you can even hire a college student who has access at their college to PitchBook. That is worth your time and money to invest in, to do that research and find out what investor is actually interested in your product. It saves a lot of time and a lot of wasted energy.
EW (00:53:09):
Do you have any advice for someone wanting to get started on their own hardware idea?
CC (00:53:15):
Just do it. Just do it. You learn so much just by diving in and figuring it out. You meet so many people. Because you will get the courage, you will get over your hesitation, because you will want to know so badly what chip was in this product, kind of thing.
(00:53:38):
You will hunt that information down, until you can find someone who is going to give you the answer. In the process, you will discover people, products, possibilities, potential, and you will develop your skillset. So yeah, just dive in.
EW (00:53:58):
How do you know if it is going to be a good idea?
CC (00:54:01):
It does not matter. <laugh> It is your idea.
CW (00:54:03):
<laugh>
CC (00:54:09):
It is your idea, and you should go with it. You should just really explore it and figure it out. Along the way, your idea will probably change and you will get new ideas. It does not matter if it is a good idea. It does not have to be a good idea to anybody or anything. Yeah, just do it.
(00:54:34):
I know that is hard in hardware, because hardware is really expensive. But you will figure out how to find recycled products or recycled materials that you can build it from, until you can afford or be part of a team who is building something similar.
EW (00:54:53):
How do you find the motivation?
CC (00:54:55):
Oh gosh, this is a really good question. Some days, waking up and trudging to the desk. Especially if the day before you just reached a blocking issue, and you could not for the life of you figure out any way past it. Always definitely sleep on it. The morning always looks better.
(00:55:24):
Morning routines really important. I always eat oatmeal every single morning. I try to walk the dog every single morning. Just so that normal life can happen.
(00:55:34):
But for me, the key has been having an accountability person. Seth Kazarians, shout out to him. He has been mine for the past, what? Two and a half years. We met at Supercon, gosh, several years ago now. He is a consultant, an EE consultant. I said, "Sometimes it is just really hard."
(00:56:01):
I hear about these other startup founders who have this three point list. They are like, "If I can just get this three point list done today. Not a whole sea of activities, but just like this is my three point list. Sometimes it includes calling the doctor for that doctor's visit or whatever. It may not be specifically work focused. But just having that task list every single day. And then sending it to him, and exchanging one with him.
(00:56:35):
I can also bounce questions off of him, because he is an EE. So it is kind of water cooler talk, like, "Hey, yeah, I am working on this chip and I used this microscope. Or I used this analyzer and I had some good experience with it. But there were some caveats and here they are," kind of thing.
(00:56:59):
Having that accountability buddy, especially if they are in your industry, really, really helps, especially if you are a sole consultant. That has really helped for me.
(00:57:11):
The other thing that has really helped for me- I know this is not motivational, but it ends up being motivational. For every project I work on, I have a little notebook. Some people save these in various formats. Since of course I was a Microsoft baby, I save them in Word. But it has pictures and links to whatever I am working on.
(00:57:38):
I do not have to input things every day, so it is not like a- I call it my "work journal," but it is not- I do also have a work journal, but it is per project. So for example, when I worked on the display driver for The Cyrcle Phone for this latest version, it was banging my head against a wall for six months.
(00:58:02):
It turned out four months in, they gave us the wrong file. Another month later they sent us the new file. But the vendor intermediary, who was trying to send it to us, it got trapped in his email. He missed it for a month. So it was not until the last month that actually could finally get that file, and start developing the display.
(00:58:31):
What that did to our business was it was really horrible, but you learn to just keep going. And I also had links of all of the threads that I could pull off the internet in one place. So when I had to go back to the display-
(00:58:54):
So I made another one for the camera driver. The camera driver, I got it working. We were on the road to 20- Let us see, what was it? The 2020 CES. We had a booth there and all that kind of stuff. And then I was like, "Oh my gosh, the back camera is not working. What is going on? What are we going to do?" Fortunately, everybody wanted to take a selfie with the phone, but not so far away. So thank God.
(00:59:19):
There are some tricks that you in the booth, that- For example, people will not input their email or contact information into, like if you have a tablet-
EW (00:59:29):
Heck, no.
CC (00:59:30):
Or if you want to scan their- But if <laugh> you have a pad of paper and a pencil or a pen, and you are like, "Oh, did you want more information? Well, yeah, we are keeping this list for people who wanted more information, but it is just on this pad of paper." So many people will give you their email address, and they can see other people's email addresses and what questions they wrote down. I could not believe that!
(00:59:59):
It was mind boggling to me and horrifying to me, that this- It was so old school, they were like, "Oh, yeah, sure." And, "Oh yeah, I know this person." And, "I meant to talk with them," and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it was mind boggling to me.
(01:00:18):
So we always keep a pad of paper and a pen now at the booth, just in case people do want to leave their contact information for later. But yeah, is that not astounding? It is like social- What is that called?
EW (01:00:32):
Social engineering.
CC (01:00:33):
Social engineering. Yeah. It is really interesting.
EW (01:00:37):
You said, "Input your email." I have been in booths, and I am just like, "No, thank you. I will walk away now."
CC (01:00:43):
Right. Right. Exactly.
EW (01:00:44):
Yeah, if you handed me a piece of paper and I was sort of interested, especially if I got to see the other people's email addresses and questions, for some reason that would make me do it.
CC (01:00:57):
It disarms you. It totally disarms you, and I cannot tell you how awful it is for me later. After the conference, I am exhausted. The next week I pull up this pad. I have to transcribe all of the email addresses, to send them the information that they want, do the follow up and all that kind of stuff.
(01:01:18):
I am sure this is what salespeople do. They keep your contact information, they follow up after the events, and they are really good at that. I have noticed there is a cadence for- For CES, there is a cadence. Typically, I will get a follow up from a vendor two weeks after. Because everybody is just exhausted. They usually have some cold or something.
EW (01:01:41):
The crud.
CC (01:01:41):
Because it is like- CES, I love it to death, but one year over 200,000 people attended. There are only 150,000 rooms in Las Vegas, so you do the math. That was before the pandemic, so before everything went online. They have tons of people attending online, in addition to everybody who attends in person.
(01:02:09):
There are 13 different tracks. So whether you are doing- Gosh, what is it? Health or smart home or education or- They have all these different tracks. It is like 13 different conferences all in one conference. It is amazing.
(01:02:27):
You definitely have to wear tennis shoes. It is in several different venues. You have to take the monorail between different venues. Yeah. It is enormous. But you see so many inspirational things at that conference. I love it.
(01:02:48):
Yeah. Talking about good conferences, that, Teardown and Supercon, those are my loves.
EW (01:02:55):
Christina, thank you for spending so long with us. I have more questions, and yet we should go about our day.
CC (01:03:02):
Definitely. Definitely. It is a good Sunday here in the northwest. We are migrating from blackberry season to apple season. I hope the weather is holding up for you down where you are.
EW (01:03:15):
It is. It is perfect. So we need to go out and play.
CW (01:03:17):
<laugh>
CC (01:03:17):
Yes. Definitely with the dog.
EW (01:03:21):
Do you have any thoughts you would like to leave us with?
CC (01:03:26):
Go out and learn. That is my final thought.
EW (01:03:31):
It is a good one.
(01:03:33):
Our guest has been Christina Cyr, Senior Principal Electrical Engineer and CEO of The Cyrcle Phone.
CW (01:03:39):
Thanks, Christina.
CC (01:03:41):
Thank you.
EW (01:03:41):
Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you to our Patreon supporters and to Mouser for supporting us. Thank you to Debra Ansell for the connection and Siji Oluwadara for the suggestion. And then, thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show@embedded.fm or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.
(01:04:00):
And now a quote to leave you with. This is from T Kingfisher. "Hemlock & Silver" came out recently. I started it before the show and barely made it on time, because it is a good book.
(01:04:17):
"There is a crazy-wild delight that comes over you when you discover something new, something extraordinary. If you try to share that and people look at you blankly, it is crushing. But if there is someone else there to say, "Really?!" and take fire with enthusiasm alongside you, well, that will keep you going for a long time."