494: All Tech Is Wearable
Transcript from 494: All Tech Is Wearable with Debra Ansell, Christopher White, and Elecia White.
EW (00:00:06):
Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, alongside Christopher White. I am very happy to welcome Debra Ansell back to the show.
CW (00:00:16):
Hi Debra.
DA (00:00:17):
Hi! Hi Chris. Hi Elecia. How are you?
EW (00:00:20):
Good. How about yourself?
DA (00:00:22):
I am pretty good today. Thank you.
EW (00:00:25):
You have been on the show, but it has been quite a while. Could you tell us about yourself, as if we met at, oh, Hackaday Supercon?
DA (00:00:34):
Sure. My name is Debra Ansell. I go by "Geek Mom Projects" online. I am a maker. I get a great deal of joy out of designing, and creating things that I have never seen before, and learning new skills from other makers, and experimenting with techniques that I learned from other makers.
(00:00:55):
I started making hardware projects with my kids, but kept growing my skill set. Now over the course of about 15 years, I have learned a lot of things. The best compliment anybody ever paid me as a maker, was to describe me as a lateral thinker, which really made me feel seen in that moment. That is me.
EW (00:01:17):
What does that mean to you? "Lateral thinker."
DA (00:01:20):
It implies creativity. It implies out of the box thinking. Not taking what you see at face value, but always looking for alternate techniques, alternate meanings, ways to use or interpret things that may not be obvious. Which is a strength I like to think I have, and a way of thinking I really enjoy seeing in others, and pursuing on my own too.
EW (00:01:49):
We are going to do lightning round. Are you ready?
DA (00:01:51):
I am ready. Yes!
CW (00:01:52):
What is your favorite development board to play with?
DA (00:01:57):
Oh, my goodness. Dev board? Hmm. Probably the whole XIAO series. I toggle between them, depending on the project. But they are so small, they fit in anything, and I tend to use small projects. They are teeny.
EW (00:02:20):
So small.
DA (00:02:21):
Same footprint as QT Py. So QT Py works too, actually. They are both pretty good. QT Py is nice. I am going to put in a plug, because I really do like Adafruit. They have the little Q W I I C, Qwiic, I guess, port-
CW (00:02:33):
Oh, yeah.
DA (00:02:34):
Which is really nice. I am all for just never committing to soldering a project together, until you absolutely have to. Because I just like the ability to change things.
CW (00:02:43):
I have a board with that port on it, which I do not get to use. But I keep looking at it longingly. <laugh> "This would be a lot easier."
DA (00:02:51):
Yeah. You probably do things with more inputs than outputs. When you focus on LEDs, you just frequently can get by with just really only needing one GPIO, and that little port is fantastic.
EW (00:03:01):
Do you have a favorite geometric solid?
DA (00:03:03):
Oh, that is really- I spend a lot of time thinking about polyhedra. More than most people, I got to say. I have been going down some rabbit holes. Right now it is the truncated icosahedron, because it is something I can build that is pretty close to spherical. I am a little obsessed with trying to get to a sphere in my electronics, in the shapes and the builds. I reserve the right to change it, if I come up with a better one in the future though.
CW (00:03:32):
Okay. I have recently seen a post, where you had a video or a picture of a pillow, with what seemed to be an LED display in it. Can you explain this to me?
DA (00:03:42):
Well, the most recent one you saw was not mine.
CW (00:03:44):
Okay.
DA (00:03:46):
I did make one though, too. I am not sure which you were referring to. Was it white or black?
CW (00:03:49):
I have seen both. Yeah.
DA (00:03:49):
Yes.
CW (00:03:49):
I am fascinated by the idea of furniture with furniture accoutrement?
DA (00:03:54):
Yes!
CW (00:03:55):
With lighting. <laugh>
DA (00:03:55):
Accoutrement. Well. I will say- I wrote up a project on how to make an LED pillow for "Make: Magazine." When I came up with it, I thought I was just so clever.
(00:04:08):
It turns out that another wonderful maker, named Janet Hansen, who goes by "flashingjanet" online and does incredible wearable and home decor work. We were joking online actually, that she should be called "Martha Stewart on acid," for the work that she does.
(00:04:28):
Both put together a pillow with an LED display. She has come up with one that is higher resolution, and she of course custom designed the controller and the patterns and the sound reactivity, and came up with an app with hers. So I think she wins. But I did however come up with an article on how you can make your own, so I guess I get the DIY aspect of that.
(00:04:49):
But in both cases, I love the idea of taking a standard object, objet d'art, or just a standard household decorative object, and making it interactive and light up. But it does not have to. You can look at it and it looks like an ordinary pillow, until you decide that, "Hey. Let us turn this thing on." Suddenly there is a party on your sofa. <laugh>
CW (00:05:14):
<laugh>
DA (00:05:17):
It just makes things more fun, when there is the- You never know when something is going to start lighting up around you. I just like that. That idea, that it could happen at any time, and you are never quite sure what it is going to be.
EW (00:05:28):
Do you have a favorite sensor?
DA (00:05:31):
Wow! I have not thought about that one. Probably would say, "An IMU."
EW (00:05:37):
Yes!
DA (00:05:38):
Only because-
EW (00:05:38):
Yes.
DA (00:05:38):
I know! Well, when I took your class, you talked about the sensor. I got started down the path of making very early on. The first thing I did that was beyond really, really basic making, was take a deep dive into how an IMU works. I use the MPU- Oh gosh. 6050? What was the one you worked on, Elecia? Did you not do something for them?
EW (00:06:07):
No. I am familiar with InvenSense, but most of mine were for a different company.
DA (00:06:13):
Okay. Sorry. But yeah, I took a deep dive into how one combines the data from an accelerometer and a gyroscope. It was a really good entree for me into electronic sensors, because at the time I was still pretty much a novice, at least with hands-on electronics.
(00:06:31):
But I had come from a physics background, so acceleration and rotational motion and gyroscopes and all that, were at least mathematically a concept I was pretty familiar with. This was supposed to be a short answer, was it not? I am so sorry.
CW (00:06:48):
Oh, no. We have broken it.
DA (00:06:49):
Okay.
EW (00:06:49):
We have already-
CW (00:06:50):
Yeah. It is fine.
EW (00:06:50):
It is not your fault. He asked you about LED pillows. We knew that was not-
DA (00:06:54):
That is true. Yeah, there was other stuff to say about that too, but I think we are going to circle back to that, hopefully later. Okay.
(00:06:59):
But yeah, no. The IMU, it was really my first foray into, "There is so much here. This is really cool. Look what happens. You can take this accelerometer data-" I had done data processing before. So you take this accelerometer data and-
(00:07:19):
I did a deep dive into, "Look at this. It is kind of cool. But it is also very glitchy and jumpy, because it is just measuring force and acceleration, which is not kind of this steady thing. And then this gyroscope data, which is a lot smoother and measures rotation angle, but tends to drift over time. And there is this really neat mathematical concept called a 'complementary filter.'"
(00:07:39):
I started going down this rabbit hole and learning all about it. Again, it was my entree into sensors, but I was comfortable and really fascinated by the math, and how all the signal processing could suddenly get you much smoother cleverer data.
(00:07:51):
Then got to use it in my builds. I love making motion reactive LED builds. I have a headband that tells you if your head is on straight, basically <laugh>.
EW (00:08:05):
<laugh>
DA (00:08:05):
By measuring the tilt angle of your head. It is basically a level bubble in a headband, using an IMU. Yeah! That would be my favorite sensor. You have given me permission for that not to be a short answer. So those are the reasons why.
CW (00:08:25):
Favorite fictional robot?
DA (00:08:26):
Okay. I was prepared for this. Since I do not really have a strong affinity for robots, I realized that the first robot that really made an impression on me, and this is going to date me, was Herbie the Love Bug.
CW (00:08:40):
<laugh>
DA (00:08:40):
So <laugh> I am picking that one.
EW (00:08:44):
Do you have a tip everyone should know?
DA (00:08:46):
Yes! At least for makers who end up with lots of small components, one product I have that has made my life easier, and a lot of people seem to appreciate, is that you can go to Michaels and buy what are photo storage boxes.
(00:09:02):
I think they are Craft Keeper brand, and they come in these very cool kind of rainbow colors. It is a box with about 12 different inserts in rainbow colors, that all fit inside very neatly. They make organizing parts very easy.
(00:09:15):
They are really great for small parts. If you label them, you can keep track of where everything is. They are portable. And you should never pay more than $15, and very often you can get them on sale for $10. That is my tip.
CW (00:09:27):
I am going to go buy one of those this afternoon.
EW (00:09:29):
We are in your office. You could buy at least 12.
CW (00:09:31):
<laugh> Oh. I do not know how big they are.
DA (00:09:34):
Put it in the show notes, and I will see if I can get an affiliate link from my <laugh> customers.
CW (00:09:37):
<laugh>
DA (00:09:37):
They are very useful though, genuinely.
EW (00:09:47):
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(00:10:46):
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(00:11:01):
We have been talking about making already.
DA (00:11:03):
Yes.
EW (00:11:04):
One of the reasons to ask you to be on the show, is because I actually have not seen much from you lately. I did not know whether that is because I am sticking my head in the sand and not looking around all that much, or you have not been doing so much. Which is it? Or both?
DA (00:11:20):
Well, it is- I do not think you are sticking your head in the sand necessarily, though I cannot speak to where your head has been. But I have definitely- I had to think about it. I think my output is a little bit down. But definitely my public posting is down, for various and sundry reasons. A lot of which relate to me retreating a bit from different forms of social media.
(00:11:49):
And I do tend to share more with a smaller, more personal group, rather than the bigger general public. Partly because of the way the different platforms work, it is not as easy as it used to be.
(00:12:03):
I think partially I have been focusing on bigger, longer projects like "Make: Magazine" articles. I did get waylaid a little bit with unexpectedly turning what was a PCB fun project, into something that was actually going to get produced, which took a little bit of time.
(00:12:23):
So I think there has been a smaller output, coupled with a smaller degree of social media usage. That gives a whole big impression that I am not doing as much. I am thinking just as much about it. Whether or not I am actually making as much, it is hard for me to say.
EW (00:12:45):
Are you- You are a maker, so you are going to make things like your headband. It is for you.
DA (00:12:50):
Yeah. Yes!
EW (00:12:53):
I imagine you make gifts for people.
DA (00:12:55):
Yeah.
EW (00:12:58):
And you write for "Make:" so you definitely have that piece of the creativity puzzle, the DIY, showing people. So social media is pointless? <laugh> Is that the word? Is that the word?
DA (00:13:16):
No, it is not! Well, maybe a little superfluous. "Pointless" is too strong. But it is not, is the thing. It has just changed. I will say-
(00:13:28):
I am going to backtrack just a brief moment, because one project that has kept me busy is just not something that actually would be as interesting to the public. But I have been working with a wonderful teacher, who has been using making in a high school classroom.
(00:13:48):
I have been helping her a little bit with her projects and her curriculum. It has been a bit of a collaboration there. That is her project, so I do not do that as much in the public view. But that is been taking a bit of time as well, I think maybe one of the reasons.
(00:14:04):
This ties into what you said about social media, is I met her and I have met so many other makers and collaborators and friends and inspirations through social media. So I view it as a wonderful place to exchange ideas, and a wonderful place to get inspired, and a way for people to connect.
(00:14:25):
I think I am pretty lucky in that I get relatively high ratio of decent messages via social media platforms, to just spam and junk. I mean that being the majority of it is still spam and junk, but I actually do get contacted by interesting people, who I end up meeting and exchanging information with that can be a lot of fun.
(00:14:51):
It is actually a really important part of the process, and it has been for me. It really got me from just somebody who was experimenting, to somebody who realized that they had work that was worthwhile to show off, because I got to gauge the reactions that people had to the posts I made.
(00:15:08):
Sadly, the nature of and the influence and the whole zeitgeist, I guess, of social media has certainly changed. I feel like I have been hopping from platform to platform. Left Facebook many, many years ago. Left Twitter, which was a wonderful platform for me at the time. It was such a frictionless place to post and engage. It was really just a simple thought. I liked it back when it was 140 characters and, yeah. <laugh>
EW (00:15:45):
You had to make a puzzle out of your message. I loved that.
DA (00:15:48):
Yes! It forced you to be succinct. I love wordplay, and I love working with constraints. Yes, and fitting in wordplay with a constraint of 140 characters, was really a fun thing to do.
(00:16:01):
Then decided in good conscience- I still had a wonderful community there, but could not contribute my content to a platform that I thought was not being used for- That was not being used in a way I could support. It was being used in a way I frankly abhor, so left that. Left a whole bunch of followers behind. Moved to Mastodon, which has been good.
EW (00:16:32):
<laugh> You have that same tone I get. It has been good. I guess.
DA (00:16:37):
Well. No. Ironically- I am on Mastodon and Bluesky now, almost exclusively. I have been using Instagram, but I am going to leave that as well. So it is down to Mastodon and Bluesky. I like both. I get really sad when people who adopt one platform start to slag the other, because they both have their uses. You can use both. They are both good ways to connect.
(00:17:03):
I like the people on Mastodon, the engagement on Mastodon. It is not frictionless in the way that Twitter was. That may certainly be contributing to how much I post, and how much I display my work. Because it takes much more work to frankly just even find my account, or find my friends on the Mastodon platform <laugh>.
EW (00:17:26):
Yes. <laugh>
DA (00:17:26):
They are all on different servers! It is so hard. And if I click a link, it does not take me to my app. It takes me to something that I have to log in. Yeah, it is not nearly as streamlined, as I would like it to be. But the flip side of that is it kind of keeps the riff-raff out.
(00:17:42):
So I have enjoyed, I think, my interactions there, and the conversations there very much. It is designed for conversation. Not for monologuing, not for showing off, and I like that. But nothing is going to go viral. Nothing is going to- Which is fine too.
CW (00:18:01):
I have had something go viral <laugh>.
DA (00:18:03):
Have you? What was it?
CW (00:18:04):
Oh, nothing.
EW (00:18:04):
Oh.
CW (00:18:04):
<laugh> The Chevy thing.
EW (00:18:11):
When Chris asked for the Chevy of Watsonville's, to create him-
CW (00:18:15):
Write me a Python script to solve-
EW (00:18:17):
Navier-Stokes equations.
CW (00:18:19):
Fluid dynamics equations.
DA (00:18:20):
Oh!
CW (00:18:21):
Somebody picked that up and it-
DA (00:18:22):
Yes! Yes, yes, yes. That was-
CW (00:18:22):
And then they stole it, and it went on Twitter. But the reporters eventually found it back to me, which was the original post on Mastodon. That got a lot of engagement. Yeah.
DA (00:18:32):
Yes! That was an awesome hack. I did not realize you were the original perpetrator of that.
CW (00:18:36):
<laugh>
DA (00:18:36):
Okay. No, that was really good. That should have gone viral. But yes, it does not-
CW (00:18:40):
No, I agree.
DA (00:18:41):
Okay.
CW (00:18:41):
It is much harder. So I am on Mastodon almost exclusively. I use it like I did Twitter. I do not find it that different, but it is probably because I use it the same. My uses of Twitter was similar. Like, I just put out a sarcastic comment once every three days, or a picture-
DA (00:18:56):
Yeah <laugh>.
CW (00:18:59):
Or a picture or something. Or talk to the few people I know on there, back and forth. Or comment on stuff. Yeah. And I have also narrowed my usage of it, from what I was using social media for before. But, yeah.
DA (00:19:13):
Yes, it lacks that- It is good. I both like and dislike the lack of algorithm there. I appreciate that nobody is pushing any information to you, and I think that is ultimately good.
(00:19:27):
I will say that you do not get quite the dopamine hit, that you did when things- That jackpot of, "Most of these posts are crap." But, "Oh yeah. That one is really good. I got engaged with that." You do not have that unpredictability, and that jackpot feeling of finding something new and novel, that you were not expecting in your feed, that something pushed there.
(00:19:51):
But ultimately, I think it is good. It is less addictive, which is good. But by that nature, I use it less.
EW (00:19:58):
Yeah. Yeah.
DA (00:20:02):
Yeah, I agree. It is good for engagement, and it is- I very much appreciate the transparency and frankly the ability to customize your limits. I then did not appreciate, when I first got on, realizing that I was on an- My first foray in there, I realized I was on an instance that was blocked by a million other instances.
CW (00:20:25):
Right. Yeah.
DA (00:20:25):
Not because of anything they did, but because they refused to block some other instance. That is very-
CW (00:20:31):
Yes. That drama. That is the downside of how it is distributed. People can make distributed decisions. I do not know that there is a way to square that, really.
DA (00:20:40):
No. It makes me wonder just what is going to happen. Bluesky is ultimately supposed to be distributed. But it is really not yet. Or it is decentralized. They have not done that part of the algorithm yet. The people who are on it- I enjoy it. It is a different kind of feed. But I do wonder what will happen to it, if they ever attempt to implement that.
CW (00:21:00):
Yeah. Off of social media. <laugh>
DA (00:21:02):
Yes! That is fine. Sorry. That was random thoughts on social media. But it relates to- I do think it is the reason I am less discoverable and visible, which may not be the worst thing either.
EW (00:21:14):
Yeah. You also are on- I know at least one Discord board we are both on, and occasionally post to.
DA (00:21:23):
Yes!
EW (00:21:23):
But are you on other smaller instances of what might be considered social media? Or might just be considered-
CW (00:21:31):
A forum. <laugh>
EW (00:21:32):
Chat? Or a forum?
DA (00:21:36):
There are two Discord servers, that I pay a reasonable amount of attention to. It would be nice- I would probably visit the Embedded forum more often, if it were Discord instead of Slack. I am sure that has been a thought process for you.
(00:21:55):
Yeah. Discord feels a little bit safer somehow. It feels more like hanging out with your friends after school. It is people you get to know. You have the in-jokes, and there is not the worry of what you say being taken out of context. Which was always the risk of social media, is that your in-jokes, which work for your followers, suddenly go viral. Then all of a sudden it is taken out of context, by people without good intentions.
(00:22:24):
Yeah. I am very active on one, and sort of active on a couple others. That satisfies a lot of what I look for in social media, as well. They are all makers. Because makers I find to be- Those are the people that are harder to actually meet up with in real life. It is such a scattered group of people. But it is also a more interesting, diverse group of people, than I meet in day-to-day life too. I get a lot of enjoyment out of those forums.
EW (00:22:55):
I have found, as I was looking at my own social media presence, that I definitely do not do that much anymore. I would rather spend time on a Slack or a Discord, where I read most of the messages, and got to know most of the people. Instead of the noise that I have to search for the signal in, that could be Mastodon. I know Mastodon is about who you follow, but I... <sigh>
DA (00:23:26):
It is not searchable. No, <laugh> it is not searchable. It is hard to navigate. That is correct. They are different. They have different utility. Many makers I know depend on outreach for sales, for followers, for interest, for sponsors. So it is a different thing.
(00:23:53):
I am lucky in that I like to reach people to spread what I do, and to get engagement there. And also to learn about what other people are doing. That is the bigger circle I want to reach out to.
(00:24:09):
Then I go back to the Discord servers, for more in-depth conversations. What has ended up happening, at least with one of the servers I am on, is that it started out to be a group of makers, who came together over a common bond of having a product. Which I did, and technically still do, that is phasing out. And wanted to talk about sales and having small maker business.
(00:24:34):
It has turned into really a much deeper support group in a lot of ways, without going into too much detail. It is such a diverse, interesting group of people, from so many different backgrounds. Many of whom are facing challenges that me and the other- My background and my social group is suburban mom in day-to-day life, and would not encounter half the people I would.
(00:25:10):
It is important, I think, to connect and reach out, and hear all these viewpoints from people who are not like you. Are not like you demographically. I think we all do have a lot in common, ironically, even though we are demographically very different.
(00:25:31):
Again, it has gone from, "Hey, we are going to talk about making," to like, "Hey, what wins did you get today? What went well for you? Oh gosh, I am sorry you did not get this job. How can I support you?" Or, "How can we help you reach this goal?" In a much more personal way, than general social media. So that has been nice.
EW (00:25:57):
One of the things that I saw from your social media, that I think is related to at least one of these Discord boards, is something called "Maker Gift Exchange."
DA (00:26:06):
Yes! Oh, that was a joy. Yes. That was something that was just honestly pure joy for me. It actually may also have been related, ironically, to tie this back to kind of a lessened output for the <laugh> last few months at least of 2024.
(00:26:22):
So this Maker Discord group started a couple of years back. Really, we bonded over the pandemic. We had regular Zoom meetings, where we just- We started off sharing show and tell projects, but it became a lot more than that.
(00:26:42):
We decided a couple of years back to do a gift exchange. Basically a white elephant style gift exchange around the holidays, to de-stress everybody a little. We ended up doing it in January rather than in December, to give everybody a chance to finish their projects. It was things people made, but it did not have to be. Some people had picked up things. It was an absolute delight.
(00:27:06):
If you know the style of a white elephant gift exchange, is you pick a gift from one person, and somebody else gets the chance to steal it. We are all very friendly, so there is not- And everybody is so creative, so just the reveal of seeing what people were working on in past years was wonderful.
(00:27:24):
I was so looking forward to it this year, and honestly felt a great deal of pressure to have something that I would deem worthy of contributing to the gift exchange. So I decided in the run up to the exchange, that I was going to tackle a project that had been in the back of my head for a long time.
(00:27:40):
Then a few weeks before I am like, "I am not going to be able to make this work." <laugh> And then switched gears to something else, which ended up being- Again, this ties back to a previous conversation. A PCB based icosahedron, which had been in the back of my head for a while too. I did manage to get that working just in time, and that was my gift.
(00:28:04):
So I felt a great deal of relief that I had a gift to bring. Then I was very much looking forward to seeing what everybody else was going to bring, because they are such creative, interesting people. It did not disappoint in the slightest, because people were dropping hints in the run-up, as to what they were making. It was a lot of fun to anticipate.
(00:28:27):
Then when we got together, we all get on the Zoom, and we start by holding up a bag and describing our gift. I got to say- So again, tying this back to earlier discussion, the gift I ended up getting my hands on, worked out perfectly because it was by Janet Hansen. It was that LED pillow. It was not the first gift I got, because mine got swiped a couple of times.
(00:28:55):
But Janet Hansen, who does amazing LED wearables for all kinds of clients, but some really impressive, interesting celebrity ones. She has done LED costumes for Britney Spears. Work for various and sundry celebrities you will see on her blog. And I had been dying to get something by her, so I was very happy to end up with her pillow.
(00:29:18):
But other makers like Ben Hencke, whom is a friend of yours, and we all know and love from Pixelblaze, my favorite LED controller, created something completely new. He made a point of view LED clock, which was just so clever, which he also posted to social media and is worth taking a look at.
EW (00:29:40):
Point of view? Persistence of vision.
DA (00:29:42):
Yeah, did I say "point of view"? I meant, sorry, POV. Yeah, sorry. I meant, yes, persistence of vision LED clock. And using a slip ring to get the electricity to- A homemade slip ring, and so many clever homemade touches, in the way that only he can. He put so much work into it. It was fantastic.
(00:30:05):
A number of these makers have been on your show. Carrie Sundra, who runs Alpenglow, who does- She has a bifurcated making profile. She does wonderful yarn tools and great electronics kits.
(00:30:18):
By the way, I had this gift briefly and it was stolen from me, and I still resent this. Had crocheted <laugh> an LED cap, and it was gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. I love nothing more than LED wearables. It is a beautiful LED cap. I think she is looking into actually possibly turning this into a product, so that is worth looking forward to.
(00:30:44):
Let me think. What else? Oh yeah. Last year I ended up with a wonderful, beautiful, unique LED panel, by a wonderful maker whose handle is maketvee, M A K E T V E E. His name is Martin Oehler and he is German. He this year did a really beautiful LED mandala panel with- It is a nice combination of a custom LED matrix covered by beautiful diffusers, that had gorgeous, very zen looking LED patterns.
(00:31:24):
Everybody brought something that fit with their personalities. So one of my favorite people in this group, just for sheer uniqueness of character and personality, is Kevin Cappuccio, who I cannot pronounce his handle. It means "giant squid" in Latin, is all I am going to say. He handmade- Soldered together this most- It was like an LED graph, with a transistor and an oscillator. I cannot even describe what it does, but I think hopefully he posted about it, so people can go look at it.
(00:32:03):
Just wonderful people with wonderful creative ideas. Somebody else, a maker who goes by GC threw in a button he had made. It is just called the- I am going to self censor here. It is just the effort emergency stop button.
CW (00:32:18):
<laugh>
DA (00:32:18):
<laugh> There is a bit of a running gag in the group, for there are a number of us utilize profanity maybe a little more than we <laugh> should. More we should. We enjoy it. We get a big enjoyment out of it. That is a fun thing we make jokes about.
(00:32:34):
So yeah, people brought wonderful creative projects. Oh, and then somebody, another maker from the group, had been traveling in Shenzhen recently. They found those holographic sticker warnings. They are usually used for warning labels on electronics.
CW (00:32:56):
Oh, right. Yeah.
DA (00:32:56):
Yes. And somehow managed to get- So found the manufacturer and got a set custom-made, that instead of the warning just simply say, "Do it you coward," which I thought-
CW (00:33:08):
<laugh> "Void this warranty."
EW (00:33:08):
<laugh>
DA (00:33:09):
Which is just- Yeah, "Void this- Do it. Do it you coward." It was all just creative and wonderful and novel, and a really absolutely worth the mental buildup I had had for it. Just a terrific group of people, and a good time was had all around. It is something that we have done three years running, and I am looking forward to again next year.
EW (00:33:29):
You described yourself as a "suburban mom." Then you got into making? Or are you both?
DA (00:33:40):
Demographically, I am a suburban mom. I was a state- I retired from a job as a software engineer when my oldest was six months old, because I could not make both work. Somebody needed to raise the kids. But I am absolutely both.
(00:34:01):
But "maker" has a loose definition. My first time on your show, I think I talked about how back when I was raising the kids, after I had- I had gone through physics graduate school, I had taken electronics classes, I had done research in radio astronomy, I had programmed computers.
(00:34:16):
Then I was staying home for years with these very small children. So threw myself into kids' birthday parties, by literally- I described the process I think of making 25 pounds of homemade play dough, so we could build baking soda volcanoes in our backyard. So it channeled it differently.
(00:34:37):
So yes, I have always been a maker, and makers are a very diverse group. But makers are also an highly underrepresented group among suburban moms. So I did not meet a lot of other people with my interest, until I started reaching out on social media with those interests.
(00:34:58):
It is still interesting. I tend to notice very much when anybody else at another conference is a mom, because it really feels unusual. I was talking to Christina Cyr actually at- I do not know if she has been on your show, or not? She made the Cyrcle Phone.
EW (00:35:16):
She has not been on the show, but I invited her recently. And after this show, I will ask you to forward along a message that says, "Please come."
DA (00:35:24):
Oh. You should. And she should. I adore her. She is great. She gives such great interesting talks, and does such an interesting diversity of tasks. But she and I at- I am sure there were other moms there, but I did not know them. We were looking around in this room, and we were the only two moms we could identify very easily by sight.
(00:35:47):
In another maker group that is local to Los Angeles, another mom just joined. It made me really happy, because there are certain <laugh> jokes that people do not get, unless you have that shared experience.
(00:36:01):
So, yeah. I am both, but I also find that to be kind of unusual. It is funny that I know far more people in very niche groups in the maker community, than I do moms in the maker community. I am not quite sure why that is.
EW (00:36:24):
Well, you see. When you start with Bayesian analysis, you have to talk about all of the women in tech. And then all of the women who are moms. And that decreases the number. And then it just goes kapooey. And, yeah.
DA (00:36:42):
Yeah.
EW (00:36:45):
Which is sad, because like many groups that do not have as much representation in technology as they do in the world, moms have some really good ideas on how to get things done and how to do things.
DA (00:37:01):
Absolutely. I will say this, having been home to raise my kids, I did hang out with a large number of moms, not from tech backgrounds. But a large number of stay-at-home moms, who were lawyers and businesswomen and very, very smart. Very smart, very savvy women, who were choosing for whatever reason, to not utilize those talents at the time.
(00:37:32):
I always thought that if I could ever recruit from that talent pool- If I were the kind of person to start a company, it is a big talent pool to recruit from. I think there is a lot of power there.
(00:37:43):
But I will say this too, part of it is also is I do not see- Most moms just do not come across as nerds in the way I am. I <laugh> am not quite sure why.
EW (00:37:56):
Sad disappointment.
DA (00:37:57):
It is a sad disappointment. I mean "nerd" in the best possible way. Nerds are my people. I identify as one. But I do not see that in that group so much. I am, again, not quite sure why.
EW (00:38:11):
Are your kids nerds?
DA (00:38:13):
Yeah, my whole- Well, yes, but in assorted and [sundry] ways. I would not say my husband is a nerd. The nerdiness comes out in different ways. This is going to get pretty far afield from tech, if you let me <laugh> follow it down the rabbit hole. So you may want to- I will say- Just let me cavale for a moment, and you can totally cut this out.
(00:38:32):
We are nerds in that we like to absolutely discuss the minutia of really bizarre topics. Linguistics is big in my house. I have one science nerd, my middle son who does combat robotics. He and I share a lot in common. My youngest does competitive scrabble, which let me tell you is a nerdy world all its own. Highly nerdy, highly interesting. Yeah. We are all nerds, but in different ways.
EW (00:39:05):
One of the things I found- I do not really know why this is coming up. But one of the things I found with doing the podcast, was that I thought I was done making friends. I thought I was old enough, and I had plenty of friends, and I did not really know how to meet people, and I do not really like people.
CW (00:39:29):
<laugh>
EW (00:39:29):
So it was fine not to have more friends. But then I started to meet people through the show, and some have become good friends. But then there are other people who are like, yeah, I could be really good friends with this person if I made the effort, and they made the effort, and it would be really, really good. And I did not know that.
DA (00:39:54):
Yeah. You do not know. Doing the show is a way- Again, social media and making for me, is you find like-minded people. I do not know how to describe the commonalities that makers or tech people share that make us so compatible.
(00:40:12):
But I will say, that one of the reasons, yeah, I love making communities is I am an introvert, but you can drop me in any maker group, even if I have not met anybody, and it is so easy to find things to talk about. It is such a comfortable setting.
(00:40:35):
It exhausts me much less than almost any other social group to hang out. Which does not sound like much of a compliment that it exhausts me less, but it is significant when you are an introvert to not drain your social battery.
(00:40:48):
I get very excited to have people get excited about the same things, learning the same things, that I do. Or discovering, or coming up with something unusual. The only other group I think that I get that feeling from, is when I teach kids.
EW (00:41:06):
Yeah.
DA (00:41:10):
Yeah. They share that ability to be excited by things. I remember when the Mars- Again, I am taking you down a path, and you can reel me back in later. But when the Mars rover landed, and I discovered that there was a secret code in the parachute. I am telling people about this, and everyone is like, "Oh, that is neat."
(00:41:26):
Then I went to talk to a class of kids that I was working with. And they are like, "Yeah! That is so cool!" And I said, "Yes. You guys get it." <laugh> So. I do not know. I think there is maybe a childlike excitement that makers retain maybe, that many people lose along the path to adulthood. I do not know if that is it, or not.
(00:41:45):
But I do find that common element really endearing. I feel like I can get really excited about figuring out that I needed a pull-up resistor on this thing, and now suddenly it works, and tell that to people. Everyone else is like, "Oh yeah. I totally get that feeling, when you figure that out." It is like, "You discovered that. That is neat. You figured it out yourself. You did that work."
(00:42:09):
Whereas anybody else who did not fit in that world, would not understand why I was so excited to just make that work in the end.
EW (00:42:21):
Yeah.
DA (00:42:21):
People who had not bang their head- If you have not banged your head against electronics for two hours going, "Why are you not working? Why are you not working? Why are you not working?" And then suddenly realizing, you put the right resistor in there, suddenly it works. <laugh> There is that dopamine rush, that is a shared experience for a certain group of people, I guess.
EW (00:42:39):
So, electronics. I want to get back to that. Although we may wander off again. Because clearly the whole friend thing was not your fault. <laugh>
DA (00:42:47):
<laugh>
EW (00:42:51):
Except you have always been one of those people that was like, "If we lived near each other, we would be getting coffee, and then occasionally going out to get drunk."
DA (00:43:00):
1000%. Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah. No, no, no. You are very cool. That is it. Exactly. I feel like- I just assume, and rightly or wrongly, I assume certain things about you, based on what you do, the things you like.
(00:43:13):
Having hung out with you, at least digitally when we took your class, yeah, there is definitely a bond. We have definitely shared interests. And I think shared outlook on certain things too, which is most helpful.
EW (00:43:35):
But one of the things you got to do recently, that I have not done in, well, forever. I mean, I did it once. You went to Hackaday Supercon last fall.
DA (00:43:44):
Yeah.
EW (00:43:46):
They had a contest. And you were one of the winners.
DA (00:43:50):
Yes! I was very excited, because I am secretly very, very competitive. <laugh>
EW (00:43:54):
<laugh>
DA (00:44:01):
Nothing makes me happier than actually winning things. Even though it is not a really nice trait, and I try to suppress it. But yes. I have been to Supercon, I think a few years running now. I actually spoke at the Covid version of RemotiCon. In fact, I spoke on a topic that is not unrelated to the prize that I got for this year's Supercon.
(00:44:25):
Because when I spoke, I gave a talk that was recorded, and you can see [it] online, about how to use PCBs in unusual projects. Not just for a simple get the signals and the electricity from point A to point B, but how to use them as a building structure. And how to put them together as building blocks for larger projects. And modular systems of PCBs.
(00:44:49):
I actually ended up adapting a project I showed off in that talk, into an SAO, which they called a "Supercon Add-On," or-
CW (00:45:01):
<laugh>
EW (00:45:01):
Yeah, that is what that S stands for. Sure it does.
DA (00:45:03):
<laugh> Yeah. I am going with that for at least this podcast. The contest this year- In the past they have had bigger grander prizes. This year it was a simpler, "Hey, make an SAO add-on for this year's badge." Because badge hacking is of course a large part of Supercon. "Bring it, and that is our contest."
(00:45:32):
I was excited about that for a couple of reasons, because one is I have never felt like I could measure up to the badge hacking. Most people did, because- People get way down into the nitty-gritty, and spend a lot of time hacking some amazing, incredibly complex things for the badges.
(00:45:52):
But what comprises an SAO, an add-on for the badge, could be anything. So you can take a creative idea that may not be so complex, and that can be a great add-on, or something fun to add on to the board.
(00:46:12):
So I adapted this design I had made years back, which was a- How am I going to- It was a modular system of PCBs, designed- Basically, it was an extensible system of two rows of PCBs that faced each other, that could flex, basically, like a snake. I am not going to describe it very well verbally, but hopefully you can have a link to drop in the podcast, that will show people what I am talking about.
(00:46:39):
Basically I designed an extensible system of PCBs that could flex, and used spring contacts on boards on one side of this assembly, to mate with circular contacts on the PCBs on the other side of the assembly. So that could pivot around a common center point, and still maintain electrical and signal contact.
(00:47:03):
The thing I made at the time was this extensible board, that did not really look like much. So I thought I would take this concept, and adapt it into something that was cute to look at. After a little bit of brainstorming what would look good, that wiggles, I came up with the idea of making an inflatable carwash balloon guy.
CW (00:47:22):
<laugh>
DA (00:47:22):
Which I have since learned, <laugh> has an acronym. Somebody said to me, "It is a-" Oh gosh, "It is a W- Wacky, wavy, inflatable, something, tube man," I think from some "Family Guy" episode.
(00:47:37):
So I made a wacky, wavy, tube man that could actually pivot, that has a series of LEDs running up the front. So that could light up in various patterns. And yet it was almost a fidget toy, in that you could bend it into various angles, and still have the signals travel all the way up and the lights light up.
(00:48:00):
This is basically- It is like eight PCBs in a trench coat. Because it takes eight PCBs altogether to make this one add-on board. So it was a little complex, but it was not complex electronically, because it really is just a series of addressable LEDs.
(00:48:18):
It was just mechanically complex, to get the tolerances right. That everything mated correctly and pivoted correctly, without too much friction. Or too little compression, so the spring contacts did not make contact. It was engineered within tenths of millimeters.
(00:48:38):
I was very, very proud of that mechanical structure that I got working. And amazed that it could be done, because I am using- The whole thing is held together with plastic push rivets, that work amazingly well.
(00:48:50):
Electronically, it is not much to talk about. But mechanically, it was a neat way to use PCBs. I basically made a series of attachable slip rings out of PCBs, that connect together and can bend.
CW (00:49:05):
I think the mechanical parts of things, <laugh> are often the most difficult. That is what I am finding. I have a lot of projects I have been working on for clients, and I have to do just the bare minimum mechanical things. It takes me 18 times longer to do anything mechanically, than it does in software ,electronics.
DA (00:49:21):
It is hard. You need to- Because there is no way to absolutely know how it is going to work, without physically testing it out. You just do not know. You can model it, but then you do not realize- Like, friction is something that is- I am sure somebody-
CW (00:49:33):
For tolerances. "Oops, it is off by a millionth of an inch. Well, it still does not fit. Sorry." <laugh>
DA (00:49:38):
Tolerances. Yes. Yes. No. No, no. The funny thing is too, when you are designing things in CAD, right? I was talking about this with my middle son too, because he does a lot of CAD design for his robots. You are working with these parts, and on your computer, these things are huge. There is this chasm between these two parts.
(00:49:55):
And then you go down you are like, "No, I have left a tenth of a millimeter. I have left less than a tenth of a millimeter, but it looks like this big gap on my CAD screen. Surely that is a large enough space." <laugh>
(00:50:07):
"I have got to be able to fit lots of header pins in there. That is so big." And then you go down and realize, "No, no. That is really not a very big space at all, when you are looking down this. It just looks so much bigger on the screen." Things on your CAD screen are much bigger than they appear. It should be a warning they put on Fusion 360.
EW (00:50:25):
<laugh>
DA (00:50:28):
So yeah. I enjoyed that challenge. It was fun and it was iterative. Because I had gotten the head start by doing a version of this a few years ago, I was able to do something that I was pretty proud of, using the same concepts. I had a working proof of concept, so the rest, it was adaptation at that point. I thought I could get it working.
(00:50:48):
I still was of course doing it last minute. Then of course there was the crisis when I got to Supercon, to realize that I had made everything work mechanically, but had designed the SAO connector backwards. That was a bit of a crisis, in and of itself.
(00:51:03):
It was a crisis that turned into a really bright spot, if I can just keep talking about this, if I am not going on too long.
EW (00:51:15):
Mm-hmm.
DA (00:51:15):
Okay. I was so excited to put this together. I got it in just- You had to document it before Supercon. I was not thinking. Okay, maybe in the back of my head, because I am a competitive person like, "Yeah, this is good enough. It could win a prize."
(00:51:35):
But really I am like, "This is a ridiculous PCB." Because the winners were going to get manufactured. I joked it should win the least manufacturable prize, because that was an actual category. Because it is eight PCBs in a trench coat, with a buffer layer of acrylic in between each, and crazy ridiculous assembly process.
(00:51:56):
And then I had these things that were working, at least when I had tested them. But of course I had not tested them with an actual SAO connector. I just plugged power and ground in. Got to Supercon, and realized I had put power and ground on the wrong side of the SAO connector.
(00:52:09):
I was a little bit devastated, and spent the first few hours of Supercon going- Just fixated on this, "What can I do? What can I do?" And realized a few hours in, that it could be fixed. Because the PCB out of the eight that contained the SAO connector, had symmetry around a vertical axis.
CW (00:52:31):
Ah.
DA (00:52:32):
If I could desolder, flip and reattach it, it actually was fixable. But desoldering is a big pain in the butt, and I was not home and I did not have my tools. So I thought, "You know what? I will make a few work. I will get it working." And I sat there and started desolder. Some people, some other makers, came over and said, "What you doing?" as they are want to do at Supercon.
(00:52:54):
I explained, "Yeah. I had this thing." And they are like, "Oh. We will help." Before I knew it, this wonderful group of makers sat down with me. I am like, "Go socialize. Go do your thing." They are like, "No. No. We are going to sit here, and we are going to help you". Everybody grabbed a few PCBs, and they helped me desolder all those panels, and what would have taken me days, in just a few hours.
(00:53:15):
It became this little coffee clutch of just a fun activity to do together. It was honestly a really nice experience, that brought a really fun bonding experience, out of what was a minor- In the scheme of things it was not a major, but a minor, crisis. Big disappointment for me, but was a minor crisis. Suddenly became this "people are really good and nice" moment, that everybody was just so kind to sit down and help. It became a fun event, that I believe- Honestly, one of my favorite Supercon memories from this year.
EW (00:53:55):
You said that it is going on to be manufactured?
DA (00:53:58):
Oh, yeah. Yes! Well, now that is a whole nother story. Yeah. They decided that they were going to pick boards in I think three categories. I am forgetting the other two. Mine won in the artistic category, which again, was very nice.
(00:54:20):
I do think it is as much a referendum, that I was able to submit my board before the contest closed, as anything else. <laugh> Because the contest actually closed before Supercon. So anybody who was planning to get the thing working at Supercon, was just out of luck, although technically mine was not working then.
(00:54:43):
So yes, it won. The prize was that the winners in these three categories, were going to be produced and given out as SAOs at Hackaday Supercon Europe. I laughed, because I really did think mine was in the running for least manufacturable. Then I think I spoke to somebody, because this became of course Supplyframe's problem. They just shrugged and said, "Well, Supplyframe has interns." And I said, "Okay."
CW (00:55:08):
<laugh> Geez.
EW (00:55:08):
<laugh>
DA (00:55:13):
It became more complicated than that, because- It became more complicated for me, in that I really wanted it to- Then, if we are going to go out to other- It was a novelty and I was happy to make it work. But then if we are going to be distributed to a large group of people, I wanted it to be a real SAO. I wanted it to use the I2C bus. I wanted it to be programmable.
(00:55:36):
Of course, I had designed it basically that it was just LEDs. Signal input ground, through the SAO connector. So I tried to make it more- I spent a little bit, of time, I did not have a lot, trying to upgrade that, and made a lot of mistakes along the way.
(00:55:53):
I decided to put a controller on the board, that could be used as an I2C peripheral. And learned a lot about what can and cannot be an I2C peripheral. So now there is an ATtiny3224 on the board. I thought, "Oh, sure. That is great."
(00:56:12):
Then realized that- I thought it would be fun to make it programmable, using the Raspberry Pi Pico, which is the basis of the badge itself, which is all neat. A friend of mine assured me that, "Yeah, they could probably figure out how to get the Raspberry Pi Pico to work as a programmer." So that was very cool.
(00:56:34):
Until then I realized that by putting one of the programming pins on the SAO header, if you plug it into the badge and that pin is pulled, I cannot remember if it is high or low now, the thing boots up in programming mode, and will not launch into the LED sequence you have programmed into it. So that became a thing like, "Oh, crap." So managed to I think fix that, with adding a pull-up or pull-down resistor.
(00:56:57):
Then suddenly realized that I did not- I had briefly entertained the thought that maybe I need pull-up resistors on the I2C lines. I had read somewhere that no Raspberry Pi Pico has-
EW (00:57:11):
Internals.
DA (00:57:12):
Pull-up, pull-down resistors. Internals. So I did not put those on, and now I have realized those may not be strong enough. I may not be able to get the I2C to work in the first place. Yeah, you know that. I should have consulted with you.
EW (00:57:23):
No, it should work. It should work.
DA (00:57:26):
Well, okay. Then I may actually be contacting you afterwards, with how to get it to work. <laugh> Because I am having some problems, and I am trying to get this done in short order.
(00:57:35):
So yeah. It has been an adventure on my end, but I am learning a lot. I am actually enjoying it. It is definitely something I do not do every day, because the manufacturing- "Look. I made something that is good enough that they want to manufacture and give it out." That is definite ego boost. But yeah, I am going to hit you up for I2C, <laugh> because I am having some problems.
(00:57:55):
And then they are having- Well, this I do not know. I am just going to say this. I do not know if Supplyframe will have a problem with me saying this or not. But I do not think Supplyframe had counted on the fact that interns are no. If you are going to manufacture something and ship it to Europe, you have to be compliant with RoHS, with RoHS things.
(00:58:19):
You cannot do that by manufacturing- The certification process for manufacturing here and then shipping it, is unwieldy and impossible. So they know they actually have to have this thing manufactured in China. Suddenly this thing that you were to have to maybe explain to a bunch of interns, and just have them sit in a circle, slapping these things together, suddenly has to become a Chinese manufacturing process.
(00:58:39):
It is a whole interesting story in of itself. We will see how it turns out. But it looks like it is going to- Hats off to the people at Supplyframe, who are going to make it work on their end. I am now in the- It would be so nice if I can get the I2C thing to work, because I really would like to have that happen. If not, it is going to be a dumb, pretty SAO.
(00:58:58):
That is the story of the Bendy SAO thus far. It also ties into maybe why I have not been posting much online. And why I have such trouble documenting my projects, because there are so many blind alleys and wrong <laugh> turns they take in the process, that it feels like documenting them would be a bit of a waste.
EW (00:59:19):
I do not know. Sometimes it is nice to know not everybody gets it on the first try.
DA (00:59:24):
Oh! I am that person. Yes. <laugh> I do appreciate hearing that from other people, but this seems particularly farcical, I think, in certain aspects of the development
EW (00:59:36):
But you made it horribly unmanufacturable. You made that joke before you went.
DA (00:59:40):
Yes!
EW (00:59:40):
And now you are reaping the whirlwind. This is all your fault.
DA (00:59:46):
Yes! Well, no, but it is their fault for choosing it.
EW (00:59:53):
<laugh> Yeah. Say that to the competitive Debra. I met her a few minutes ago.
DA (00:59:58):
Yes. No, do not, yeah. No, I do have nobody to blame but myself. That is absolutely my own darn fault. And in the end of the day. Yes. It is a net positive, and it is the story I am going to be very happy to tell later. I am going to be very proud of it when it comes out, no matter. Even if it- You love all your children. This will be one of my children that I love, <laugh> at the end of the day.
EW (01:00:22):
I hope and I know this is a weird thing to hope. I hope that you see this in Target stores, having been ripped off by a Chinese manufacturer to make a toy out of it.
DA (01:00:37):
God, I hope so- No. Actually, right. But I will say this, to tie this back to social media, nothing made me happier than to have somebody tag me on social media saying, "Hey. Look, I took this idea that I saw you do, and I made this from it." That was always my favorite part of interacting with people in general social media, was you take somebody else's idea and build on it.
(01:01:07):
When somebody else takes my idea, I do not really want to see it. You know what? Honestly, anybody who decides to manufacturer this for their stores deserves what they get.
EW (01:01:15):
<laugh>
DA (01:01:15):
But if another maker would have take this slip ring concept, and do something cool with it, because I- There are other- I think it is not done yet. I think you could do some fun things with it. I would love to see it.
EW (01:01:29):
Oh, yeah. I am thinking about paper things in Chibitronics, and slip rings and origami and moving, and there is stuff here.
DA (01:01:39):
Yes.
EW (01:01:39):
Yes.
DA (01:01:42):
Or, I was thinking about, yes. Well, yes, because you do- I was thinking about the commonality of what you do and what I do, because I have been working with polyhedra. I do not know, your origami is a little bit more organic. I am going to take in a slightly different direction. I am sorry.
(01:01:55):
But it had occurred to me when thinking about the show, that PCB origami- I do not know if you have gone this path before. I know you have incorporated electronics into your origami, I think.
EW (01:02:06):
A little bit. Not much.
DA (01:02:08):
A little bit, but definitely people have.
EW (01:02:10):
Yeah.
DA (01:02:10):
Yeah. And then folding. So this PCB design pivots along an axis that is perpendicular to the plane of the PCBs. I have a design that has been waiting in the background, that is basically a PCB with hinges that folds. I have done some bad attempts at this, but I think I do have one that will work. I would love to do some kind of folding flexible structure of PCBs.
(01:02:42):
I made recently for the gift exchange, an icosahedron out of PCBs using tiny little PCB connectors that helped hold the sides at just the right angles. But I would so love to be able to do a flexible assembly of PCBs, that you could fold or unfold into an icosahedron, or into-
(01:03:03):
You know how every polyhedron has what is called a "net"? Which is the unfolded form. So I would really like to be able to do it. For no other reason than it would just be interesting and fun to see how it would look. A series of PCBs that could be folded flat and then folded into this polyhedral shape. And maybe other ones, if you could come up with the right arrangement.
(01:03:24):
But it just made me think of your origami. And then in my usual typical chain of thought, also came up with the idea of- I had made- One of the projects I did for "Make: Magazine" was a project called "Bag to the Future," which had an illuminated polygon mesh on the front of a bag, of shapes that could flex, but were illuminated from behind with the LED string.
(01:03:53):
But it occurred to me if I could get- Instead of 3D printed tiles, I could use PCBs as the tiles, and some sort of flex connector in between and kind of recreate, I do not know if you are familiar with, I think it is Issey Miyake's baobao bag? It is a famous designer bag with triangular tiles that flexes, but it has these rigid triangular tiles that bend to form interesting shapes.
(01:04:21):
To replace those tiles with PCBs that illuminated, but could still flex between them, and some sort of mesh, would be a very interesting idea. So PCB bag is also on the list of things, that I want to go down this route with on PCBs.
(01:04:35):
It seemed to me, again, somehow in your alley with origami and the way things fold together, there is probably some synergy there that I am not thinking of.
EW (01:04:46):
Oh, so much. I have been more thinking about flex circuits, and making small holes to provide hinging for the flex circuits. But-
DA (01:04:59):
Ooh.
EW (01:05:01):
Yeah. The way you have got it, it is really cool. And these Baobao bags. Yes, definitely. That would- I mean, I can see. Yeah.
(01:05:11):
Let us see. Okay, around here somewhere I have my outline and my notes. <laugh>
DA (01:05:19):
I know! I am so sorry. Good luck editing this whole thing, and I apologize.
EW (01:05:22):
No! This is great!
DA (01:05:24):
Okay. You knew what you were signing up for. I am just going in there.
CW (01:05:27):
Have you heard the show?
EW (01:05:28):
<laugh>
DA (01:05:28):
Everybody sounds, I do not know. Everybody sounds so- You edit beautifully, Chris, is that all I am going to say, is your editing is top-notch. <laugh>
CW (01:05:39):
I do far less than you think. <laugh>
EW (01:05:42):
All right. Well, the goal here is to talk to people who are excited.
CW (01:05:45):
Exactly.
EW (01:05:46):
And I think that that is the goal for a lot of things.
DA (01:05:48):
Yeah. Okay.
EW (01:05:48):
And so it is really nice to talk to somebody who is actually excited.
DA (01:05:53):
Okay. No, you are really fun to talk to. But I have to say, I try to keep in mind that this is something that other people are going to- You are going to want other people to be able to listen to, and follow up the listeners <laugh> at some point.
CW (01:06:02):
We do?
DA (01:06:04):
Yes, I think so.
CW (01:06:05):
No.
EW (01:06:05):
No.
CW (01:06:06):
We have done 400 and something at this point.
EW (01:06:09):
There cannot be anybody left to listen.
CW (01:06:10):
We have whittled it down to the core that enjoys our stuff. <laugh>
EW (01:06:14):
They just use us to fall asleep.
DA (01:06:16):
All right. You are not looking to grow your user base. You are looking to find the diehards. I guess I will help. Yes. <laugh> You are welcome.
EW (01:06:23):
One of the other reasons you are not going to be posting a lot of making things, is because you are going to be wandering around experiencing things.
DA (01:06:33):
Yes.
EW (01:06:33):
The Portland Winter Lights. And then Teardown.
DA (01:06:38):
Yes! Yes, one of my resolutions for 2025 was to get out, go hang out with the people I enjoy, and see the places I enjoy. There are not a lot of makers- There are some, but there are not a lot of makers in Los Angeles. So traveling to different maker events- Or, Portland Winter Lights Festival is kind of a maker adjacent event in my head. Is one of my goals for 2025.
(01:07:12):
Yeah, the Portland Winter Lights Festival starts next weekend. It is a wonderful event, that I cannot believe I did not hear about until basically last year. Portland is a great city for artists, and it has got a very large LED community. It is really a wonderland for LED enthusiasts, at this time.
(01:07:30):
It is in the winter. They put these wonderful centralized exhibits of LED art, out in three main central locations in the city of Portland, which is a really accessible city and easy to walk around and see things. Then they also have additional events that people can go to.
(01:07:52):
Last year I went and there was a silent disco, in which people were wearing headphones and roller skating around. Some were wearing LEDs. It is the only place I have been to wearing some of my LED outfits, where I thought, "Wow! I could be wearing even more LEDs, and still fit in."
EW (01:08:09):
<laugh> "I am underdressed."
DA (01:08:13):
It is fantastic. Wearing my LEDs is actually camouflage, not the opposite. It was really fun. Yeah, it is fun to see the people. It is fun to see the events. The art is fantastic. I think a lot of things went to Burning Man and came back. For those of us who are maybe not big on tents and dirt, it is a great way to see them, and a lot of like-minded people.
(01:08:37):
I had a few friends I visited while up there. Ben Hencke is one of them. It was really fun last year to walk around the exhibits at the Portland Winter Lights Festival. We would be walking by a storefront, and he would look and say, "Uh, that is a Pixelblaze." And he would call out the pattern it was running. A surprisingly <laugh> large number of them were doing that. That was a blast with him.
(01:09:00):
It was very funny. I was recognized on the basis of one of the projects I was carrying. Somebody- It was really neat. I got to talk to a lot of- I met LED artists who did really cool things that I had not seen. So it is just a lot of fun.
(01:09:17):
It takes place over- It is over nine days, but most of the activity is over two weekends. The first of which is going to be the February 6th and 7th of this year, and then the following weekend. It is a visual delight. Again, for LED nerds, it is really- It is a place I get to wear all my wearables. It is a place I get to hang out with other people, who are wearing more LEDs than I am at the same time. Yeah. It was a real blast.
(01:09:49):
Also, Portland is just a great city to hang out in. Great food. One of the events for the Winter Light Festival last year was- It was a drag show enhanced by LEDs, which was really great, because you are not going to see that just anywhere. It is a city that has, I think on the regular, even without this Winter Lights Festival, has an illuminated bike ride, I think once a month.
(01:10:16):
Yeah, my kind of people basically. It is a really just fun event. You can just wander around and just look at things. It feels like the whole- Maybe not the whole city, but the people who are wandering around looking at things with you, are all in on it.
(01:10:38):
It was funny, because I was there so excited about it. I would take an Uber various places, and explain to people I was going to the Lights Festival, and they had never heard of it. And yet I would get there and it seemed like there were so many people walking around looking at the exhibits, just like me. It is both a well-kept secret and a popular event, at the same time. I am not sure how.
EW (01:10:59):
And then Teardown is in June. Also in Portland. Again at The Mall.
DA (01:11:04):
Yes! Yes. Teardown was a great, great conference. I very much enjoy Supercon. Teardown is similar and different at the same time. Yeah, Teardown was a great conference for connecting. It was organized by Helen Leigh. Major shout out to her for putting it all together, in a way that was inclusive and comfortable, and designed for communication and connection.
(01:11:33):
Which is one of the reasons I want to travel to go to events, is to really connect with people in person, that I may only have seen online. Great makers, great projects. As a child of eighties malls, who hung out at eighties malls growing up, the abandoned eighties mall vibe was just like a bonus.
(01:11:57):
She somehow transformed an empty Gap store in a dying mall in the city of Portland, into this event space. It worked really well. In particular last year when I went, I brought a bunch of my wearables, and got to set up a display in the Gap, of denim jackets with LEDs on them. Which was just so apropos. It was great. They put in mannequins, and I had a whole LED wearable display in the Gap in an eighties mall. Other exhibits were just as much fun too.
(01:12:37):
A lot of people I know gave great talks. I really enjoyed the talks and workshops. They did a really nice job with the activities too in the evening. I really enjoyed the way that Helen, and anybody else who helped organize, incorporated the features of the city of Portland into the events. Like, we had food from great local restaurants.
(01:13:02):
There was a scavenger hunt, which- I was on a team that basically- What did we call ourselves? We called ourselves the "Sunk Cost Fallacy," because we basically just- We had no chance of winning, and we were basically kept making wrong turns at every turn. But decided we were just going to keep going, because at this point it was too late to quit. <laugh> It became a bonding experience, that took us all over Portland, and it makes a good story at the end of the day.
(01:13:31):
We went to the Autodesk headquarters, and saw the sights. It was really- It was not just hanging out in this very small place with all these same people. It was exploring this big city with these cool people who were fun to explore it with.
(01:13:49):
I can just go on and on about this, but one thing that I thought they did very, very nicely, was with the Teardown schedule, was building in downtime, and providing spaces specifically for hanging out and conversing with others. And comfortable spaces, because it does get to be overwhelming to be around so many people for a while.
(01:14:10):
So if you want to just go and have some quiet time and talk one-on-one, there were spaces to do that. You could escape without leaving too far away. But you could also find a quiet spot to chat. You could also take a moment during the downtime, where you did not feel like you are going to be missing something, if you stepped out for a little bit.
EW (01:14:30):
Sounds like it was a good time.
DA (01:14:32):
It was a great time. A lot of my maker friends and I, especially in the Discord, are really looking forward to going out. Again, we do not see each other in person, but we brought the party last time, and we will do it again this year too, when we see each other.
EW (01:14:46):
Debra, it has been great talking to you. Do you have any thoughts you would like to leave us with?
DA (01:14:52):
Well, knowing I had to come up with a final thought, I will leave you with my motto, which is that all tech is wearable if you try hard enough. That is really it.
EW (01:15:05):
Our guest has been Debra Ansell of Geek Mom Projects.
CW (01:15:09):
Thanks, Debra.
DA (01:15:10):
Thank you so much, Elecia and Chris.
EW (01:15:12):
Thank you so much for filling in for me. This was the last minute sort of thing, and I really appreciate your flexibility.
DA (01:15:18):
No, my pleasure. I really appreciate you putting- Again, good luck to you. I am sorry for the editing, and I appreciate you.
CW (01:15:23):
<laugh>
DA (01:15:23):
<laugh>
EW (01:15:26):
Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you to our Patreon listener Slack group for their support. And thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show at embedded.fm or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.
(01:15:40):
Now a quote to leave you with. Debra, do you want Jodie Foster or Taylor Swift?
DA (01:15:46):
Jodie Foster, please.
EW (01:15:47):
"Normal is not something to aspire to. It is something to get away from."