476: Sidetracked by Mining the Moon
Transcript from 476: Sidetracked by Mining the Moon with Lee Wilkins, Christopher White, and Elecia White.
EW (00:07):
Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, alongside Christopher White. Our guest this week is Lee Wilkins. We are going to talk about art and open source hardware. Teaching, learning, writing, Open Source Hardware Summit. And/or being a cyborg.
CW (00:23):
Hi Lee. Welcome.
LW (00:24):
<laugh> Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
EW (00:26):
Could you tell us about yourself, as if we met next weekend at the Open Hardware Summit?
LW (00:34):
Well, I am an artist, primarily. I do a lot of work with technology and exploring different ways technology can exist in the world. I am also a really big community advocate and just general community person. I am really excited about bringing people together and making weird stuff.
EW (00:53):
Cool. We want to do lightning round, where we ask you short questions. If we are behaving ourselves, we will not then ask why and how and all the other details, until later. Are you ready?
LW (01:06):
Yes.
CW (01:07):
What is a cyborg?
LW (01:09):
A cyborg is any time humans and technology come together.
EW (01:17):
What senses do you wish you had?
LW (01:27):
Hmm. I do not know. I have no answer for that question. There are no specific senses I wish I had. I am very content with my set of senses <laugh>.
EW (01:35):
Cool.
CW (01:35):
Favorite fictional cyborg?
LW (01:39):
I have been watching a lot of "Star Trek" lately, so I have to go with Seven of Nine.
EW (01:44):
Favorite fictional space station?
LW (01:46):
Ooh. Yeah. I do not know. They are all kind of bad.
CW (01:51):
<laugh>
LW (01:51):
A lot of bad or weird things happen on fictional space stations. I cannot say that I want to be on any of them.
CW (01:58):
<laugh>
EW (01:58):
<laugh>
CW (02:01):
Do you like to complete one project or start a dozen?
LW (02:05):
Definitely start a dozen.
EW (02:07):
Do you have a favorite Lagrange point?
LW (02:11):
Yeah, L4. I am all good L4.
CW (02:14):
Is that a stable one? I can never remember.
LW (02:16):
It is.
CW (02:21):
Okay. Favorite fictional robot, if we are not going to do space stations?
LW (02:25):
Oh, I do not know if I have one of those either. I am truly not a big media person. I do not consume a whole ton of media.
CW (02:32):
Okay. That is fair.
EW (02:33):
If you could teach a college course, what would you teach?
LW (02:37):
Well, I, up until recently, have been teaching a college course, a university course. It is called "Cybernetics and Body Centric Technology."
CW (02:45):
Okay. We will have to ask more about that.
EW (02:46):
Yeah. That one just leads to a lot of other questions, does it not?
LW (02:48):
<laugh>
CW (02:51):
Do you have a tip everyone should know?
LW (02:54):
Keep it weird.
EW (02:55):
All right! That sounds like a tip, a T-shirt, a bumper sticker, and a general philosophy of life.
LW (03:01):
It is. Yeah. <laugh>
EW (03:04):
Coming up very shortly there is the Open Source Hardware Summit. Or is it the Open Hardware Summit? How many sources need to be in there?
LW (03:13):
<laugh> The Open Hardware Summit.
EW (03:16):
You are the chair of that?
LW (03:18):
I am, yeah. I am extremely excited about this year's event.
EW (03:23):
It is in Montreal.
LW (03:24):
Mm-hmm.
EW (03:24):
Did you have a hand in that? You are based in Canada, are you not?
LW (03:31):
Yeah, I am based in Montreal. We have been a combination of being virtual and being in New York for the last many years. We are trying to take a couple of steps to be a little bit more global and expand our reach a little bit. So Canada seemed like a good easy step. I am pretty involved in the community here, so it seemed like a great location for us.
EW (03:55):
Let us just make sure we get the dates right. When is it?
LW (03:59):
It is May 3rd and 4th.
EW (04:01):
Okay. So right after the show goes up. This is 2024, if anybody is listening to it later.
(04:05):
What are you most excited about?
LW (04:11):
I am the primary organizer. I do all of the logistics. I do all of the human wrangling and stuff. I am honestly most excited to have people in the same room, and what some people call Hallway Con. Which is not any of the specific things, but just chatting with people in between sessions, or when you are going out to grab a coffee or something like that.
(04:32):
Being with the community. I feel like there recently has been a lot of divide in the places people are hanging out on the internet. Just to get a chance to chat with people about stuff they are curious about. I am unbelievably excited for that <laugh>.
EW (04:51):
Have you been going to a lot of in-person conferences lately?
LW (04:55):
I have not. I still feel like we are coming out of this weird state where people for a long time were unsure of how to gather. I think there is still a lot of momentum of people being really excited to be in the same room together. I have not personally been going to that many conferences, which is another reason why I am so excited.
EW (05:19):
Any talks that stand out that you are encouraging people to see live?
LW (05:24):
Yeah! I am extremely excited about our keynote speaker, Danielle Boyer, who is an indigenous roboticist. She is using robots for indigenous language revival. That is super exciting to me. I love, first of all, she has this cool aesthetic that she brings to robotics, that I think gets a lot of young people and kids really interested and curious.
(05:49):
Also applications that we often do not see discussed when we talk about robotics. We see a lot of super important and amazing science or industry or all kinds of different other applications like that. But I have not seen that many companion bots used for language revival before, so I really love that creative application.
EW (06:13):
She is using the robots to help folks learn some of the indigenous languages?
LW (06:20):
Yes, exactly.
EW (06:22):
That is a neat application.
LW (06:24):
Yeah, it is really cool. She also teaches, at the same time, people how to 3D print and stuff about STEM. It is really a whole bunch of different skills coming together.
EW (06:35):
Okay. What else should I make sure to be there for?
LW (06:40):
Well, we have also a whole bunch of workshops on Day Two, which is really exciting. Because last year people could not decide whether they wanted to go to talks, or they wanted to go to workshops. So we are like, "Okay. No problem. We will make it two different days, and now you do not have to choose."
(07:01):
It is just really- You see people post on the internet, or you maybe hear something that someone is working on, a podcast. But it is not the same as actually getting to touch it, and see it, and do it for yourself. So we have a bunch of workshops on Day Two, that I am really excited about.
EW (07:18):
When I say "Be there," I will not be there.
CW (07:22):
<laugh>
LW (07:22):
<laugh>
EW (07:22):
But you have always had a really good history of having a hybrid conference. Being available to those of us who are not in the co-located spaces. How is that working this year?
LW (07:39):
We really just want to be able to include as many people as possible. That is always the goal. This year we first have all of the talks streamed. All of the access to all of our stage talks will always be free and accessible on YouTube. You can check that out, either live as it is happening, or all of the talks in previous years are also available.
(08:02):
And on Day Two, we have a Unconference. We are going to be hosting unconference sessions, which basically means that anyone can propose an idea that they want to talk about. It can be about building community strategies. It can be about something super technical. Or using a certain software. Or trying to iterate on a certain project. It can be really anything that you want to talk about.
(08:26):
You can propose it on our Discord. And then we vote on, I think we have about ten slots. We schedule unconference sessions throughout the day. People can pop in virtually and have these discussions with people.
(08:40):
We have two different time zones. We have one time zone that will be better for people in Asia, and we have one time zone that is going to be better for people in the Americas. Hopefully between those two time zones, you could find something all around the world that is going to be able to fit you.
(08:57):
I have no idea what people are going to propose. I am excited to see <laugh> what people want to chat about.
CW (09:07):
Has that been done before at the Open Source Conference?
LW (09:10):
Last year we had about an hour on one of the days in person, where we decided to have an unconference session. People were just so excited to chat, that we were supposed to have two sessions, but we literally could not stop people from talking.
CW (09:25):
<laugh>
EW (09:27):
<laugh>
LW (09:27):
To move them into another room, we were like, "Okay, guys. It is time for the second session." They just would not move. So we are like, "Okay, clearly people want this."
(09:34):
We are also going to have some in person, but why not extend it online? Right? Part of our goal with the Summit is to be more global, so why not utilize all of our capabilities to reach people virtually? People virtually do not have to be only consuming the content too. You can say, "I am going to attend the conference," and you are watching YouTube while you are doing your own thing. But we really wanted our virtual participants to actually get to participate.
EW (10:09):
And there is the Discord. So it is not like you are just watching YouTube and not participating.
LW (10:14):
Yeah.
EW (10:14):
You can talk.
LW (10:16):
Yeah, exactly. Anyone can join the OSHWA Discord. There are discussions that happen year round. It is not just around the Summit. Of course, we are doing a lot to make the Summit really awesome. But there is also, if you have a hardware question, if you have a question about open source. If you just want to find someone who is interested in the same things, you can always post in the Discord and find like-minded people.
EW (10:42):
Open Source Hardware Association. Is that right?
LW (10:47):
Yes.
EW (10:47):
Open Source Hardware Association, OSHWA. When I first came across them, they seemed like an organization that was mostly about certifying boards to be open source. And talking about how you open source boards, which is more than just putting a schematic up. It is also about the BOM and the layout and all of that.
(11:08):
But it seems like OSHWA has gone in a different direction. Is that just my perception? Or- What is up with OSHWA lately?
LW (11:18):
<laugh> Yeah, that is great. The main thing we really do is certify projects. One thing that I think is really important, while the absolute majority of the things that we certify are PCBs and boards and projects like that, any physical matter can be open source hardware.
(11:34):
I think that some of the concerns that we have with open source hardware, are relatable to many other types of products or objects that people are creating. Like, how can we open source things in general? But there obviously and traditionally has been a focus on electronics and hardware.
(11:55):
When you say a different direction, I am curious what tips you off to that. We are just trying to expand our community, and try to get new people involved. While encouraging them and letting them know that you do not have to have a fully, fully certified 100% open source pure product or project, in order to be a part of our community. There are definitely barriers. There are reasons why people are not there yet.
(12:31):
We are here to help people at any point they are in that process of learning or figuring it out. Or even whether it is figuring out how to logistically share your project. Or whether you are figuring out what kind of license you should use. Or what does it really mean to open source your project and why you should care. We are generally trying to create a more broad stance, and try to welcome new people in.
EW (13:03):
I guess that actually was one of the things that is different. I mean, not different, it was always welcoming, but meeting people where they are, the learning aspect. OSHWA, when it started, felt- I do not want to make a big division between professional and maker, but there is a bit of a division.
LW (13:25):
Yeah.
EW (13:30):
OSHWA has been more in the maker community. But it has also been more in the academic community. And a little less present in the professional community. But again, my perceptions are what I read on the internet, and my slice of the internet is very small, because I do not like the rest of it.
LW (13:48):
<laugh> For sure. We always try to bridge all of these different communities as much as possible, because we are really facing very similar types of challenges. Some of this has to do with past chairs and past organizers, who have put their hand in the community in a very particular way.
(14:11):
So if there is a chair of the Summit who is really into academia, or really into industry, or really into the maker community, of course you are going to be able to see that a little bit in the events of the Summit, and just generally the people who are congregating around OSHWA.
(14:28):
But in general, we have always been welcoming to all of those groups, and the unique perspectives that they can all bring. Because it is really through talking together and overcoming these issues together, that we will be able to really make open source hardware a mainstream and normal thing.
EW (14:48):
You said it was not just electronics. You wanted everything to be open source. Like Thingiverse?
CW (14:55):
Or at least open sourceable.
LW (14:57):
Yeah. That is the dream, right? We should not be making information, and access to tools, and access to equipment artificially scarce, when it does not need to be. The electronics community, starting with the open-source software community, this is something that we already have a lot of momentum for. We already have some ideas around. It makes it a really great place to start, and a really great place to explore.
(15:25):
But when you look at all kinds of different technology, like our textiles technology- Is making- We have a workshop this year at the Summit about making paper. Paper is definitely a technology. So what stops that process from being open source, versus how to make a sensor or how to make a microcontroller or something like that?
CW (15:48):
What are the challenges? From a software perspective, open source has been a thing for quite a long time. GNU has existed for a long time. There are various licenses that can be open source. People kind of understand that as a concept.
(16:04):
It does not seem like it is a huge step to go to like, "Okay. PCBs. They have artifacts that are basically software, and we can put a license on them." What gets challenging when you move past that?
LW (16:16):
There is a whole other aspect of hardware that has to do with the physical fabrication of something. For example, you can post an STL file, which is a rendered 3D file, but you are not really open sourcing it just because someone can print it.
(16:34):
How did you make that file? How did you get there? What is it about that that is your creation? Is it the mechanism? Is it the physical aesthetic design? Is it the process used to create it?
(16:49):
There are a bunch of different dimensions that come into focus when you are making something in the real world. You want to be able to make it reproducible. You want to be able to make it identifiable. You want to be able to make it clear. There are not that many tools that exist for easily documenting those processes.
(17:10):
For example, GitHub is great for documenting your code. You can upload your code, you can see the code that is there. But what about every kind of thing that you could make? Is going to use a whole bunch of different kinds of files. It is going to have a whole bunch of different assembly steps. It is going to have schematics. It is going to have instructions. It is going to have tutorials and pictures and all kinds of different things.
(17:33):
So a huge part of the community as well, is trying to figure out how you could make something reproducible, and how you can document it in an effective way.
EW (17:44):
There is Hackaday, and Hackster, and Instructables.
CW (17:47):
Yeah, but those are not formal. Those are just places, right?
EW (17:51):
Yeah. What is there?
LW (17:54):
Those are some great examples of places that people document things. I think it is an ongoing negotiation. A lot of people have been documenting things in different ways. Like through YouTube videos, through GitHub, through Hackaday, through Hackster. Through all of these different things. Through sharing things on forums. Through making extensive PDFs. I think it is a problem that people in our community are trying to tackle.
(18:21):
Another thing that they are trying to focus on, is just realizing who is your audience for creating all this documentation. There is no way that I can create some kind of advanced sensing mechanism, and also expect anyone off the street to be able to make it, right? That is just simply unrealistic.
(18:41):
So trying to figure out who is supposed to be making it, do they have the information that they need to make it, and where does the information begin and end.
EW (18:52):
Does OSHWA have guidance for where to go?
LW (18:56):
Yeah, for sure. We have checklists based on your project, but again, it really just so much depends what exactly your project is. But in order to have your project certified, you are going to have to have not only the output files, but also all of the files that someone would need to actually produce that.
(19:18):
So if you have a PCB, do you have the KiCad files? Do you have not just the output, but the actual tools that you- The source. You have to open the source, for it to be open source. <laugh>
CW (19:33):
That is like for 3D printing. You were mentioning STL files, which you can reimport and kind of manipulate, but it is not as nice as if you had the original project file.
LW (19:44):
Yeah, exactly.
CW (19:45):
That is hard too, because again, going back to software, there are a lot of open source software production tools. The compilers and everything. Mostly people use open source stuff. Even IDEs are open source, a lot of them. But that is not true of a lot of physical making things. Right?
EW (20:03):
Yeah. Lee mentioned KiCad, and that is open source itself.
CW (20:07):
Right. And that is a newish development in the history of PCB design-
EW (20:07):
But AutoCAD is not.
CW (20:13):
Even though it is not new. Yeah, but right, AutoCAD, Fusion 360, all these things for CAD are- There are plenty of open source CAD things too. But there is just a huge family, and they all have different formats.
LW (20:26):
I think that is part of the discussion as well. People are going to have various stances on, if you use a proprietary software to produce your PCB, is it still open source? Can someone- If they actually cannot access it without having access to this super expensive software, should that be considered open source? It is a really, really complicated question.
(20:50):
Of course, I would love to say in a perfect world, everything would be able to be producible with only free software, and only open source software. But there are obvious challenges to that.
EW (21:04):
I get frustrated with the "all open, all the time" stance, because that is not possible yet. That means you are discouraging people who might be able to go part of the way.
LW (21:21):
Exactly. I am right there with you. You have to create a big tent and invite people in. Some of the problems with, and barriers to, creating open source work in general, are we live in a society that has money.
(21:37):
There are definitely ways- There are absolutely open source businesses that are completely 100% viable. But we have to find ways to help people get there, and help people create those businesses. Really meet people where they are at. If they are excited about the idea, that is great. <laugh>
(21:59):
Some of this stuff is like we got to work together. And getting on people's case for using maybe the software they were taught in school, or the software they have access to because of their job. It is definitely a step, and we are all in it together.
EW (22:18):
So back to the Hardware Summit, and specifically because I do a lot of origami. Making paper.
CW (22:23):
<laugh>
EW (22:23):
Tell me about this. Tell me all about this.
LW (22:31):
I am not really sure where exactly to begin, but we actually have two workshops about paper oriented things this year.
(22:39):
One of them is an open source philosophy to making paper, that involves using the free materials around you, and re-imagining what it is like to make paper in our world, and also building your own tools to make paper. Our facilitator 3D prints a bunch of different paper making tools, and tells people how they can create their own.
(23:04):
Then we have another one that is actually about origami. It is about collaboratively creating an interactive instrument that everyone is going to get to play together, through building an origami sculpture. I am not fully sure what that is going to be like, but I am very excited to see it.
EW (23:22):
These are workshops. Are they going to be on video? Can I participate or just watch?
LW (23:29):
Unfortunately, we are not going to be able to stream the workshops, just because it is probably going to be extremely chaotic. In the best possible news, we have more people who want to be present in the workshop, than we are able to have physically do the workshop. So we are not really going to be able to mic people. Everyone is going to be running around.
(23:51):
But we will have documentation available, so that people can on their own, do the workshop. But unfortunately we will not be able to stream them live.
EW (24:01):
I am shaking my tiny fist. My inability to get to Montreal by Saturday.
LW (24:06):
<laugh>
EW (24:06):
How did you get involved with OSHWA? What drew you to the organization?
LW (24:17):
I have been working in creative spaces for quite a while. DIY spaces and community oriented spaces. Generally using technology as a way to connect with people, and a way to have common interests, and a way to learn.
(24:37):
I have a nonprofit called "Little Dada." We do a bunch of weird tech events, usually that overlap with art. Basically trying to bring people together who are maybe doing more technical work, with people who are doing creative work. Again, bringing people in who are just curious. So we did festivals and artworks and that kind of stuff.
(25:03):
Then I started to be involved with makerspaces in Toronto. I was a director at a makerspace in Toronto, Site 3 CoLaboratory, for a number of years. Where again, more of the same, helping people come together and build things and learn things, and get excited <laugh> about technology.
(25:25):
I was looking for another way to make a bigger impact. I really love the philosophies behind open source hardware, and realized that that is what I had been doing, but not really calling it that. I was really excited about sharing things. I used my Twitter and Instagram and all that, to share what I was doing, what I was making.
(25:49):
Also my process as an artist. I have a fine arts background. I am not an engineer, a technical person in any way. So sharing my learning process. I realized basically what I was doing was open source hardware.
(26:01):
So when I saw that they were looking for a Summit chair, I was like, feel like a combination of my love for community and hardware and connecting people, could be really fun. I started doing it in 2021. Did one virtual conference, and then last year's in New York. This will be the third Open Hardware Summit that I am chairing. Yeah, that brings us up to date.
EW (26:31):
Artist background. And open hardware has been in the past- Again, this is me trying to visualize the organization. Has been more engineering oriented. And you also have been an educator and a maker. Which of these groups should attend the Summit? Obviously all of them. Yes.
LW (26:59):
All of these groups. I think the more cross-pollination there is, and the more exposure that all of these groups have to each other, the more we can realize what we all have to offer.
(27:10):
I know a lot of HCI, human computer interaction folks in academia, for example, who really also walk this line. A lot of labs that exist in that space do have people with these hugely varying backgrounds, and they produce really interesting work.
(27:28):
That was some of my early inspiration, is looking at some of these creative spaces. The most well-known example probably being the MIT Media Lab. But there are a ton of labs that are like this, that are producing work that is on the cusp of engineering and art.
(27:49):
I feel like there is also a lot to offer for all of these groups, to come together and just chatting. I know that there are collaborations that have come out of the Summit. Like unexpected people meeting each other, that otherwise would not have the opportunity to realize that they are really excited about the same thing, maybe even from a totally different perspective.
EW (28:13):
It is on a weekend though. I have had this mental switch that if it is on a weekday, then it is a professional conference. If it is on a weekend, it is a maker conference.
LW (28:24):
<laugh> Well, it is a Friday and a Saturday, so we got both <laugh>. But a lot of people in these communities who really, really care in a deep way, the boundaries are really, really blurry.
(28:42):
They are super blurry for me too. I do not know where my professional and personal and artistic interests begin and end with this stuff. I am just generally excited. It bleeds into every aspect of the things I am doing.
EW (29:00):
I will say that I am excited to see OSHWA working more with the academic community. If they have the tools to make things reproducible, if they know the steps, a lot of times they have the impetus to do it. And- I do not want to say funding. Let us go with, grad students to make it happen.
(29:22):
It is an area where there is a lot of research, and a lot of interesting things can happen there. But so many times there are academic papers and you cannot reproduce them, because you cannot get to the code. It is not because the lead investigator does not want you to have the code, it is just there is no good way to put it together.
LW (29:43):
Oh yeah. I have spent a lot of time being the oddball in academic circles pushing against these boundaries, and it is so hard. But we- OSHWA just recently ran a program, Open Hardware Creators in Academia, that is meant to address some of these issues. We gave grants to, I want to say ten, fellows to do meta work on creating open source hardware in academia.
(30:15):
So creating guides to how you can teach these things to your students, how you can present it to the administration. And general resources for navigating this, because there are structures in place that really prevent it. That is part of our work as a community, to try to overcome those things.
CW (30:36):
One question there too, is going back to using what tools you had in college. The companies have an interest in getting people hooked on SolidWorks, or whatever. Right?
LW (30:46):
Oh yeah, for sure.
CW (30:50):
Those are the tools you encounter in academia. Because those are the professional tools, and they are preparing you for professional work. But also the companies give the academia organizations a deal, so that this is self-perpetuating. So breaking that with like, "Hey, maybe try these open source alternatives," seems like it would be useful.
(31:11):
At least to this stage of, "Oh, be aware these exist. And maybe do a project with these, to see that they can do similar things." I do not know. It does seem like people come out of engineering school with, "Well, here are the three tools, and I have to use them." And they cost $6,000 a seat.
LW (31:29):
For sure. And then not everyone has the time or ability to be able to take- After completing your four year degree, to take another three months to learn the now free version of the software. Yeah, definitely.
(31:45):
A lot of companies have been able to really balance their own benefits of the open source community, with also their own, like you say, investment in having students have this super expensive software. They are able to pick and choose what parts of our community that benefit them.
(32:03):
Part of the goal is really to find ways to develop our own robust and awesome free software, that can stand up to those limitations.
EW (32:17):
Some of it is just being able to talk to them realistically about where the tools are. I learned MATLAB in school and I used it professionally. Now if I reach for something, it is always NumPy. I can tell you that NumPy of today, exceeds MATLAB of the nineties.
CW (32:42):
<laugh>
LW (32:45):
<laugh>
CW (32:45):
Bold statement!
EW (32:49):
Yes, exactly. But I could not tell you if NumPy of today is a competitor to actual MATLAB. Knowing- As an academic, if I could know that, it would help me to be able to say, "I am preparing my students by having them use NumPy."
(33:06):
KiCad, again, is one of those that for a long time people were using it, and it was good. But everybody knew it was not as good. It is starting to get-
CW (33:19):
It takes time. Yeah.
EW (33:20):
It is starting to get to the point where, yes, you can come out of school only having used KiCad, and still be hired.
LW (33:27):
Yeah, for sure. Some of those things too, is there are a lot of- <laugh> I am thinking specifically about PCB making softwares that are just as confusing. <laugh>
CW (33:38):
Oh yeah.
LW (33:41):
They are all just as confusing. But it is sometimes just easier to go with the thing that you know, and that is what you have to do.
(33:49):
Just having people have the resources and the capacity to advocate for teaching open source tools in school, and the backing to say, like you mentioned, "This is a usable, real tool. And there are undeniable benefits of using open source tools."
EW (34:12):
One of the undeniable real benefits is that you can use it after college.
LW (34:17):
Yeah, exactly <laugh>.
EW (34:19):
I do not know how many times I scrounged around for a MATLAB license.
CW (34:21):
I know. Yeah, no, yeah.
EW (34:24):
The company always had one, but we always needed like three, so it was very exciting. Okay, so that is the Summit and some about open source hardware. Let us talk about you.
LW (34:38):
Yeah, sure.
EW (34:39):
You have been researching outer space infrastructure. That is so cool. Tell me more.
LW (34:46):
Yeah, so my PhD research is about outer space. So it is basically-
EW (34:54):
Wait, wait, wait. Say that again. Your PhD research is?
LW (34:58):
Is about outer space. <laugh>
EW (35:00):
I love the Canadian accent.
CW (35:02):
Oh, come on!
LW (35:03):
Oh, what am I saying?
EW (35:04):
She has been researching otters in space!
LW (35:05):
<laugh>
EW (35:05):
Sorry, I should not tease.
LW (35:11):
I would. That would be a great topic. <laugh>
EW (35:14):
Okay. I am sorry. Outer space. Go ahead.
LW (35:18):
Yeah. Basically doing a historical dive onto how the first people were entering into outer space, and how we are looking towards the future now. So if we are to have general population in space, what does that look like? And how can we take these very militarized technologies, and adapt them for people. <laugh>
(35:49):
For regular people who might not have any of this super training. Who might really not want to eat this dried up gross food. Who might want to have a life that is not super efficient and timed down to the minute. What does that look like, given the history-
EW (36:10):
I thought you did not like space stations.
LW (36:14):
<laugh> Well, that is the problem. I do not. I do not think that they do a very good job of painting an idea of a future that feels like I want to be there. <laugh>
CW (36:28):
I have never even- I have read a lot of sci-fi and stuff, and I have never- The conceit is always that space is hard. And then you have to just accept that you are going to have to be one of these tough people, who can eat coffee from a bag or whatever and rock.
(36:45):
Considering the opposite of that- It is very rare that it is written about the, "Hey, let us have a-" Except in the far future stuff, where everything is already super advanced and people can basically live like they do on a planet in space. So that is fascinating. I do not think a lot of people are thinking about that.
LW (37:05):
For me, it is a lot about- From the beginning, creating spaces that acknowledge people's humanity, that acknowledge that it is totally okay to want to chill out in your space station. It is totally okay to want to do leisure activities in your space station.
(37:24):
If we are expecting people to do things like go to Mars, or to live in space settlements, or to spend any extended period of time in space, we have to be human about it. And that could mean a lot of things. That could mean everything from leisure time, to fitness, to even considering what kinds of people we want to have in our space stations.
(37:52):
How do we accommodate somebody who is getting older in space? Or how do we accommodate someone with varying abilities in space? These are all questions that even on earth, they are just tacked on afterward. We are just like, "Oh, okay, well, we will just make it accessible." But if we think from the beginning, how is life in space really going to work? I think we will generally have much better outcomes.
EW (38:18):
How does knitting work in space?
LW (38:21):
Knitting? <laugh>
EW (38:24):
Knitting kind of depends on gravity, just a little bit. Never mind.
CW (38:29):
Why? What?
EW (38:29):
I do not know why knitting in space was where I went first, but what I really was thinking about-
LW (38:34):
Well, it is a great leisure activity. <laugh>
EW (38:36):
Gardening. If your hydroponics are beyond just food, then that is where I would spend all of my time. As long as it did not smell bad. Which I guess if it smelled bad, then it is probably not healthy, and the food should not be eaten. But where am I going with this? I do not know.
CW (38:56):
Do not know.
LW (38:58):
No, but I am with you. I am with going this random place, because how do we assign value to these things, that on some type of paper have no value. Growing flowers, growing plants, just because of the joy of growing plants. Things that create a quality of life that we want to have. How do we account for those things in this harsh environment of space, that has been really heavily optimized in a very particular way?
CW (39:32):
Are there things beyond simply bringing? I know what makes us human is mostly our experience on this planet, which has a lot of things associated with it. Moving to space is none of those things are available, unless we bring them with us.
(39:44):
Are there things you have been thinking about, that are unique to space that are like, "Oh, these are new human experiences, that are not just grinding out life"?
EW (39:55):
There is weightlessness.
CW (39:56):
Right. Yeah.
LW (39:57):
Oh yeah. One thing that has come up a lot in my research, is how people of a whole bunch of varying abilities, so various kinds of disabled people, might really excel in this environment of outer space. Whereas on earth, it is generally thought of that they are not able to contribute on the same level. Which is not true at all.
(40:25):
But maybe this is an opportunity that we can use to think about, "Hey, for people who have different use of their limbs, maybe they do not have to run on some weird gravity simulation machine for two hours a day.
CW (40:42):
Right.
LW (40:43):
That is pretty cool. For people who cannot see, maybe we do not have to illuminate every aspect of the space station. That is a huge benefit. You are saving a bunch of energy. There are all kinds of other opportunities that allow us to reimagine the way we are thinking of bodies in space, basically.
EW (41:03):
What is your day to day? Thinking about this is neat, but it would take me about two days before I was starting to write a sci-fi novel.
LW (41:14):
<laugh> My research mostly involves looking- The crux of it- Every PhD research is very boring. Looking at historical documents, and understanding how we are building spaces and selecting people for outer space. And what assumptions are built into that.
(41:36):
So thinking about how we can adapt those things to be different, and to really imagine a different world outside of our world.
EW (41:51):
Once again, two days, and I am writing a sci-fi novel.
LW (41:53):
<laugh>
CW (41:55):
You never liked doing research.
EW (41:58):
I like doing some research. I just get into the research, and then I am like, "Oh, and then I can apply this this way," and then suddenly I am off on tangents.
LW (42:07):
Well, I have been told by my advisor more than once, to stop making art and start <laugh> doing the research. It has actually been something that I was really struggling with, because I come from a fine arts background. I just got really excited about this subject.
(42:22):
At the beginning of my PhD research, I kept trying to make art pieces. I kept trying to write stories and do all these things. It helped me think about it for sure. But at one point, I had to just start reading the archives. <laugh>
CW (42:43):
Do you find that there is a psychological desire from some people to say, "No, you cannot do it this way. It has to be like the pioneers, and the people on the frontier, and the miners in the California gold rush. Everything must be suffering."
(43:01):
Is there that attitude that is persistent among some aspects of the space- I do not know what. The space thought leaders- <laugh> That is a terrible word, but-
EW (43:15):
That hardship is necessary to discovery?
CW (43:17):
Yeah, yeah.
LW (43:18):
Yeah, absolutely. I think it has to do with what our idea of efficiency is, and what our idea of values are. So if our goal- You mentioned the gold rush and all of these things. If our goal is to get to space to extract minerals in space, that is a different goal than to get to space because we want to have a cool space garden and knit things. <laugh>
EW (43:41):
<laugh>
CW (43:45):
If the goal is to simply make profit, that is entirely different from, "Okay, we are just expanding the frontier of where people live."
LW (43:54):
Exactly. I think those things are often obfuscated a little bit, or difficult to really see at face value, because it is so easy to be excited about space. I am so excited about space all the time. Right?
(44:07):
Sometimes you have to dig a little bit to really see, "Okay, why are we going? What do we hope to accomplish? How can we keep those goals in mind, and not get sidetracked by mining the moon or whatever?" <laugh>
EW (44:22):
You have said you have done some research. I can imagine there is a lot of NASA documentation. But do you also read sci-fi? Because I am thinking about Bujold's Quaddie system.
CW (44:38):
Oh, people adapted to space.
EW (44:39):
People adapted to space.
LW (44:42):
I do not read as much sci-fi as I should, unfortunately. <laugh> I am definitely aware that a lot of these topics are covered by sci-fi authors in a bunch of different ways, especially trying to imagine other worlds. There are a ton of activists or people trying to understand how their identities manifest in space.
(45:09):
I do a lot more looking at art. I do have a chapter of my dissertation that is just about different ways people draw space or paint space or render space.
EW (45:19):
Ooh.
LW (45:20):
And what that means. How do we imagine a space station? Is it an extension of the ISS? Or is it a whole other world, that maybe has other values or other ideas or other priorities?
CW (45:36):
It is probably a really unique perspective to come into this without a big sci-fi background. Because you are not going to be-
LW (45:44):
People are constantly giving me recommendations. <laugh>
CW (45:46):
Right, right. But it is also great, right? Because you are not tainted by a bunch of people's other preconceptions, or story-based ideas and things. I think that is actually probably useful for your research.
EW (45:59):
Because I am so tainted.
CW (46:00):
Once you are done, I have got a list of books for you.
LW (46:03):
Oh, yeah. When I am done reading all the documentation, I will definitely go back and watch all these things. Like I was watching "For All Mankind," and I could not stop referencing the actual historical events that everything was based off that.
(46:20):
I feel like most people who are watching the show probably do not pick up on every little thing. But because I have done so much research into outer space, I am like, "Oh yeah, this is an offshoot of that document. This is an offshoot of this meeting." So that was really, really, really cool to have that perspective while watching "For All Mankind."
(46:39):
But in terms of sci-fi, definitely as soon as I have done my dissertation, I am just going to sit down and get caught up on the last 50 years. <laugh>
EW (46:54):
It is too. Because some of the older stuff is weird and future, and yet closer than it was then. Yeah, sorry. Chris and I are both reading Vernor Vinge, and it is just weird. So weird.
(47:12):
Okay. Another thing you work on are zines, which are like magazines, but without- I do not know where I am going this.
CW (47:23):
Do not say that. Do not do that.
EW (47:23):
No, that did not work at all.
LW (47:24):
<laugh>
EW (47:24):
Tell me about your zines. Let us just go with that one.
LW (47:31):
Yeah. I just love zine culture. So for-
EW (47:38):
I do not understand zine culture.
CW (47:40):
It has been around a really long time, so it is time for you to-
EW (47:42):
I know, but I do not get it.
CW (47:45):
They are little self-published magazines.
LW (47:48):
Yeah! Yeah! It is just a cool way to share stuff you are excited about.
CW (47:53):
Imagine the internet did not exist.
LW (47:55):
Yeah.
EW (47:55):
<laugh>
CW (47:57):
It is a webpage that you hand someone.
EW (48:00):
Okay.
CW (48:01):
Okay. Sorry. Sorry, Lee.
LW (48:04):
That is a great way to explain it. It is like your GeoCities page. You can make it about whatever you want, and you could make it with whatever kind of weird graphics you want. But it really comes out of photocopy culture. When photocopy machines became accessible and popular. The tools that people had were to photocopy stuff, and to mail it out to their friends.
(48:29):
And again, a lot of the internet just- I do not want to say stopped that, but changed it. So now I could post on Instagram and make a reel. It is kind of like making a zine. It is something I am excited about, I want to share with people.
(48:44):
But I started doing it because again, I have an education that is fine arts. I learned electronics through mostly experimentation, or a series of super weird art teachers who also did not really know. But they were like, "I do not know. I just do it this way and it works."
(49:09):
So I felt at one point like I was missing a lot of information, that I felt like everyone around me already knew. So the example I like to give was, I remember the first time I stripped a wire and it was a strand core wire. This is like a million years ago. It was a strand core, and I had never seen that before. I had only ever seen solid core breadboard wires.
(49:30):
I was like, "What is going on?" I was so confused. I felt like everyone around me already knew this. <laugh> They were like, "Look, this is different kinds of wire in your wire." There was a ton of things like that. Little things where I was like, "Oh, why does not this LED work, and this one does?" Like, "What is the deal with this button? I press it once, and this one I have to hold it down."
(49:52):
All those little things that sometimes people do not sit you down and tell you. So I started making a series of three zines at first. One is "An instructive appreciation of buttons and switches." One is "All about wires," and the other is "LED love." These are three topics that I feel like people just zoom past when you are learning. It just goes into detail about all of the little things that you might not know. Maybe things that no one told you.
EW (50:21):
It is a good idea. You have a new one coming out?
LW (50:23):
Yeah. A topic that I feel like has plagued artists, I would say for the longest time, is Ohm's law. <laugh> Very simple on the surface. I feel like people tell you- They are like, "Okay, here are the three little equations. You multiply, divide, whatever." But then in application, I have seen a lot of people be very confused. Especially when circuits start to get more advanced. Or trying to get past that basic level.
(50:50):
I was trying to figure out whether it was that I was missing some core facts, when I was learning. Or whether I understood more than I thought I did, and nothing was actually confusing at all. Or whether there was more to it.
(51:06):
So I wrote the zine. It basically just covers how electricity works. And how to use Ohm's law in a way that you are actually going to be using it, if you are building simple circuits. And to really explain the relationship between voltage, current and resistance.
(51:26):
So it really takes people step by step, and just explains those three forces. Which again, I know it is pretty level one stuff. But I see a lot of the people at very different levels of electronics, misunderstand or get it wrong.
(51:44):
Yeah. I am super excited about it, because it is a topic that always low-key made me feel like I did not belong. Because it was a level one thing that I felt like I did not have 100% grasp on, even though I felt like I understood every phase. I was like, "Somehow this does not add up to me."
CW (52:03):
Yeah. That happens to me a lot. Yes, I understand all of this. I can solve the problems. But I do not understand it.
LW (52:09):
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it is called "Ohm No." <laugh>
CW (52:13):
<laugh>
LW (52:13):
And yeah, I am excited.
EW (52:18):
Did it turn out that you do mostly understand it?
LW (52:22):
Yeah! It turns out that I definitely understand. The thing that I feel like was most confusing, is that people have these canned ways-
CW (52:32):
Yes.
LW (52:32):
Of explaining Ohm's law. They just repeat them. <laugh>
EW (52:37):
"And then the resistance is a sponge."
LW (52:40):
Yeah.
EW (52:42):
What? How in the world is that going to help me?
CW (52:42):
No. "It is a pipe. It is constricted."
LW (52:45):
"It is a pipe." Yeah.
EW (52:46):
Oh, is it the inductor that is the sponge? Something is a sponge that just- Never mind.
CW (52:52):
I think the water analogy breaks down with either inductors or- No, it is the capacitor is a sponge. No. No, no, no. <laugh>
LW (52:59):
Well, I feel like the water is a really funny one, because it is like thinking about water in the way that you are prompted to, when you are being explained like, "Oh, the height of the pipe." I am like, "I have never thought about water like this. Why do you keep explaining it to me like this?"
CW (53:14):
Thanks a lot!
LW (53:14):
I am not a plumber.
CW (53:14):
Take me back and explain water first. <laugh>
LW (53:17):
Yeah.
EW (53:17):
Does it say plumber on my shirt? Because it should not.
LW (53:23):
<laugh>
CW (53:23):
Yeah. I got a D in the course that tried to teach about water as electronics.
EW (53:27):
And then he had to go back and get a whole degree about it.
CW (53:30):
No, that was STEM.
EW (53:32):
Oh. Oh.
CW (53:33):
I did not go back and get that degree. Although I did take graduate STEM after that, but that was different.
(53:37):
Yes. Ohm's law vexes me forever, even though it is very simple. Once you try to apply it, everybody explains it in just random ways. I am going to read that. Maybe it will fix me.
LW (53:51):
<laugh> Yeah. I tried to- As I was writing it, I tried to basically go through every canned phrase that people say, and try to really understand what they mean by it. And break them all down and say it in a different way.
(54:09):
In the whole zine, it is about 20 pages with a lot of big pictures. It really just tries to take you from what exactly is happening, what do these forces really mean, and what are the next steps that build on top of each other. Without using any of these prefab explanations.
EW (54:31):
I know the answer is going to be "No," but it is a book I like a lot. Have you read "Electronics for Earthlings"?
LW (54:38):
No! But that sounds great.
EW (54:41):
It has a similar goal, in that it definitely does not use the water analogy. It was very helpful to me when I was in the position of, "Oh yeah, I can solve these equations. But I cannot apply it to this circuit."
LW (55:00):
Mm-hmm. I will definitely check that out. That sounds great.
EW (55:03):
Where do we get your zine? How do we get your zine?
LW (55:06):
You could get my zines on my website, which is leecyb.org.
EW (55:11):
That is Lima, Echo, Echo, Charlie, Yankee and Bravo.org.
CW (55:18):
You always got to show that off.
EW (55:19):
I know! Do you know how hard I spent- Look, I probably can do some of it in Morse. Let us see.
CW (55:24):
No, no, no, no.
EW (55:30):
<laugh>
LW (55:30):
<laugh>
CW (55:30):
We are not doing that now.
EW (55:33):
Lee, it has been really good to talk to you. Do you have any thoughts you would like to leave us with?
LW (55:38):
Thank you so much. I really love to cover this huge array of topics. We went everywhere from open source to outer space to zines. Yeah, this has been great.
EW (55:49):
Our guest has been Lee Wilkins, a cyborg, artist and educator, currently based in Montreal. They are the Summit chair and board member of the Open Source Hardware Association.
CW (56:01):
Thanks, Lee.
LW (56:01):
Thank you.
EW (56:02):
Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show@embedded.fm or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.
(56:11):
Now a quote to leave you with. "Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light will not come in." It is from Alan Alda.