470: Upping the Chaos Level
Transcript from 470: Upping the Chaos Level with Helen Leigh, Christopher White, and Elecia White.
EW (00:00:06):
Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, alongside Christopher White. We are excited to welcome Helen Leigh back to the show. This time we are going to talk about Crowd Supply, and Teardown, their conference. And well, whatever else we feel like talking about.
CW (00:00:24):
Hi, Helen.
HL (00:00:25):
Hi. Lovely to be back. Thank you so much for having me.
EW (00:00:29):
Could you tell us about yourself, as if we just met at a Hardware Happy Hour?
HL (00:00:37):
Sure, of course. <laugh> I am a self-taught hardware hacker and open source enthusiast. Currently living in Portland, Oregon. The stuff I make is primarily musical instruments. Before moving to Portland, I was active in both the Berlin and London hacker communities. Did lots of stuff in both of those.
(00:01:00):
I used to make my living writing things about making. So I would make projects, write about them. I would make products from time to time. That is what I did for about ten years. But now I live in the US on the West Coast. I have taken a job at Crowd Supply, where I am Head of Community. I am sure we will be talking about that. So yeah, that is me in a nutshell.
EW (00:01:27):
Are you ready for lightning round?
HL (00:01:29):
I am ready. I am so ready for lightning round.
CW (00:01:32):
What is your dog's name?
HL (00:01:35):
Flux. <laugh>
CW (00:01:36):
A good name.
HL (00:01:37):
Oh yeah, she has got a personality, that is for sure. <laugh>
EW (00:01:42):
What kind of dog is it?
HL (00:01:45):
She is a street dog. A mutt. Very badly behaved, but also very adorable. Yes. <laugh>
CW (00:01:54):
Okay. The next question is, is it a good dog?
HL (00:01:57):
Such a good dog, such a good dog. But sometimes she is not fond of strange men <laugh>, so she barks a lot at people she does not know. But in the house, she is very well behaved.
EW (00:02:09):
Is she a fetch dog or a sniffy dog or a lap dog?
HL (00:02:13):
Ooh. All three. All three. <laugh>
CW (00:02:16):
When you go for a walk- It is a she?
EW (00:02:19):
She.
HL (00:02:19):
Yeah.
CW (00:02:20):
Does she walk well on a leash?
HL (00:02:21):
Yes.
CW (00:02:21):
Or does she turn around and look at you, and walk backwards the entire length of the walk?
EW (00:02:26):
<laugh>
HL (00:02:27):
She is a good walker.
EW (00:02:30):
JoJo is a good walker. She just walks backwards.
HL (00:02:33):
<laugh>
EW (00:02:33):
It is adorable.
HL (00:02:33):
That is really funny and cute.
EW (00:02:37):
Does she have any clothes?
HL (00:02:40):
Does she have any clothes? Yeah. Yeah, she does. So she actually only has one coat and has a bald belly as well sometimes. So we have to put a coat on her when we go outside, or she gets very cold. In the winter, I should say, not in the summer.
CW (00:02:55):
Does she have any lights, or light- Fixtures? Light things, lights, blinking things on her?
HL (00:03:02):
No. No, she does not. But maybe we should get an LED collar for her. Light her up. <laugh> Shocking! But I have not put any LEDs on her yet. <laugh>
EW (00:03:14):
And, do you have a tip everyone should know?
HL (00:03:17):
Oh yeah. Before we started recording this, my tip was going to be that when you go through self-checkouts, you can mute them most of the time. Yes. Or turn them down at least. So that is my number one just normal life thing.
(00:03:37):
But today it was difficult for us to get the microphone working. I just broke out Alvaro's amazing USB cable tester called, "Is it USB or is it me?" which has saved my life on so many occasions. So that is my tip today. I have switched my tip from the supermarket checkout to the, "You got to get this USB cable tester." It is great. It lets you know if it has got data, if it is actually passing data through or if it is just power. I use it a lot. Thanks Alvaro.
EW (00:04:10):
That is Álvaro Prieto from the "Unnamed Reverse Engineering Podcast." So we will put a link to the "USB or me?"
HL (00:04:18):
Yeah, we love it.
EW (00:04:26):
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(00:05:31):
Okay. You are planning a conference.
HL (00:05:37):
I am. Yes.
CW (00:05:38):
Why would you do that? <laugh>
HL (00:05:42):
It has been a question I have been asking myself. <laugh> No, I mean, I have done a lot of community events. This has been my first conference conference, but I have been working in grassroots community events for a really long time. When I say working, I do not mean professionally. I have been just going to a lot of them, and putting on workshops, and putting on small events.
(00:06:04):
Like, I have run Hardware Happy Hour in probably ten different cities, at this point. I have set up a bunch of different events, including Sound Hackers, which is my local event. Which actually is going on the road to Oakland in a couple of weeks. Which is all about sharing people's methodologies for making instruments. From some guys talking about how they are using FPGAs for prototyping, to people talking about different materials they are using.
(00:06:38):
I have got history. I have put on a lot of events before, and I have been very involved in a lot of the Euro hacker events. I have been part of Hardware Hacking Village for a bunch of years now. So I feel like I know what makes a good event, at least in my eyes.
(00:07:01):
I really feel like doing it. I am excited actually, even though I probably will regret it. <laugh> No, that is not true. I am pretty excited. It is a big challenge for me to actually run a conference, but one that I am doing with a lot of enjoyment actually.
CW (00:07:18):
Does it seem like it is stacking a bunch of those smaller events together, or is it a totally different animal?
HL (00:07:25):
In some ways it is different, in that you have to balance the needs of a lot of different areas. There is not just one focus, right? So you have got to make sure that there is a good flow, a good balance, and that everybody has got something that is going to keep them interested and happy. It is an exciting challenge, that is for sure.
EW (00:07:50):
There is the programming, the keeping everybody interested-
HL (00:07:53):
Of course.
EW (00:07:55):
There are a lot of facets of that, with getting the right people and getting the right audience, and making sure that everybody understands. But then there is all of this what goes on with the wedding planning part, of logistics.
HL (00:08:10):
Mm-hmm. That is a huge part of it. We do not start really looking at the content, until a good three months into planning. The content is really important, but there is also a bunch of stuff that you need to think about, in order to put on a minimum viable conference. From food and drink, to venue, insurance, contracts, AV stuff, internet.
(00:08:31):
I am having to put my own internet in the venue I have chosen, which is-
CW (00:08:34):
Wow.
HL (00:08:35):
An interesting proposition. I know. <laugh> Making a bit of a rod for my own back with the interesting venue that I have chosen, but I think it is all going to be worth it.
(00:08:43):
As long as you have got minimum viable conference, you have got people fed, you have got people watered, you have got the internet, you have got some AV going on, everything else is a bonus. So just making sure that core structure is done, and then you can slot interesting people and interesting things around that. Right.
EW (00:09:02):
Okay. So the conference is Teardown. I do not know that we have said that yet.
HL (00:09:05):
Yeah. No, we have not actually. We have not talked about the conference. Let me just describe Teardown. Let us rewind a little bit.
EW (00:09:11):
<laugh>
CW (00:09:11):
<laugh>
HL (00:09:13):
Teardown is a conference that has been run by the company I work for, Crowd Supply, for a number of years. Since 2018 actually. It is all about the practice of hardware. It is very practical, focused talks. People who are making stuff, talking to other people who are making stuff. That is the most prevalent part of the conference.
(00:09:39):
There are lots of workshops. We have a hacker art exhibit. We are having a retro computing area. We are doing loads of projects. People come from all over, to talk about really interesting things.
(00:09:51):
Last year we had [Andrew]"Bunnie" Huang came along to talk about advanced PCB manufacturing services, which was super interesting. We get a really nice range of people talking, from very practical advanced engineering topics, to people talking about how to make good documentation, how to build community, and then people talking about the projects that they do for fun.
(00:10:18):
It is very hackery. It is more grassroots than a big conference. It is not like people in polo shirts with roller banners, that is for sure. It is mostly people who are bringing their- It is like a hack and tell vibe. If you remember that, right, after Maker Faire Bay Area, they would always do a hack and tell. And that was super cool. It is very much like a hack and tell vibe.
(00:10:42):
Lots of people bring their projects. Lots of people bring their stuff they are working on. Yeah, you are not going to see any pitch decks. It is hardware, but it is very much about the actual practicality of it. As well as a lot of the ethics. We talk a lot about open source as well, because that is our focus.
(00:11:00):
That is Teardown. It is pretty fun. It has got a bit of a Portland twist to it. I actually heard of Teardown before I heard of Crowd Supply, which is an interesting twist. It is a really cool conference. I am pretty excited to be given the reigns of it.
EW (00:11:17):
It is going to be in Portland?
HL (00:11:19):
It will be in Portland, yes. The 21st through 23rd of June, is when it is going to be. There will be pre-game and post-game. OMSI, which is the science museum here, they are going to do a screening of "Hackers" the night before. Before that I will run a Hardware Happy Hour.
(00:11:37):
We have got a bunch of people in the local area to give us tours of their spaces as well. Protopasta are going to do something with their 3D print-. We can have factory visits to various different places, before and afterwards as well.
(00:11:51):
Oh yeah, Hackaday normally runs a brunch afterwards as well. So there are all sorts of pre and post conference stuff happening, as well as the conference itself. It is very sociable I should say. We do stuff together in the evenings. We have after-parties and all that kind of stuff. It is a pretty informal sociable, convivial, hardware conference.
EW (00:12:15):
It is funny. I was going to ask you, is it engineering or maker? It sounds like the answer truly is both.
HL (00:12:22):
Definitely. Definitely. It sits in that valley there.
EW (00:12:27):
It is not just maker, "I made this once."
HL (00:12:33):
No.
EW (00:12:33):
It is very much, "I am making a thousand of these."
HL (00:12:36):
Exactly. More like independent makers. And there are makery maker project type stuff that we have. We have people coming along from that community. Sophy Wong comes to talk about her spaceship before.
(00:12:52):
We put on a really interesting art exhibit this last year in 2023. We put all of these beautiful hacker projects on plinths with nice writing and plaques on the walls next to them, just to put these kind of things in a different context. Which was super appreciated by the people who were making this art, because sometimes there is not really a place to display that kind of work.
(00:13:20):
While the talks are, I would say not entirely but predominantly, focused on engineering, hardware, projects, there are a lot of kind of lighter type workshops as well, that is for sure. But it is very much focused on hardware, electronics, and open source as well.
EW (00:13:47):
Speaking of an art exhibit, I heard about the CETI Institute up there in Portland.
HL (00:13:52):
Oh yes. Yeah. That is run by Nandini, who is really awesome community organizer here. They run one of the hackerspaces. It is not really a hackerspace. It is a makerspace, I should say, that is inside of PSU, Portland State University. They do all sorts of really interesting things.
(00:14:11):
I would say they are more on the maker engineer side of things. They are based inside of a university, so there is a focus on education that they have there. Yeah, we have been partners with them a number of times, and hopefully in 2024 as well.
(00:14:29):
We also work a lot with the physics department. We get electron microscopes for people to have a look through, which is super fun. Yeah, it is pretty neat. There are all sorts of cool stuff to look at.
EW (00:14:44):
I only brought them up, because I saw Debra Ansell, Geek Mom Projects, is doing an actual show with her LED clothes and bags and hats, and I was like-
HL (00:14:55):
Oh, yeah. Amazing. Amazing.
EW (00:14:56):
"Okay. I only saw this in one space, and you should be putting this everywhere. It is amazing." Anyway.
HL (00:15:01):
Debra was actually in my hacker arts exhibit in 2023, and showed a bunch of her really awesome work. She is really talented. She knows her stuff as well. Shout-out, Debra. <laugh>
EW (00:15:16):
But they also had it at a Gap! I was surprised!
HL (00:15:19):
Yes!
EW (00:15:19):
It did not occur to me that that was possible, until I started talking to you!
HL (00:15:25):
<laugh> Yes, yes. So the venue that I have chosen where I have got to put in my own internet, bring in every single chair, everything, is actually a semi abandoned mall in the center of Portland-
CW (00:15:38):
<laugh>
HL (00:15:38):
Called the Lloyd Center. There is actually a famous thing that happened in this- Did you ever watch "I, Tonya"? You know who Tonya Harding is?
EW (00:15:46):
Yes.
HL (00:15:46):
Okay. The ice skater that broke her rival's leg or arm or whatever it is. Anyway, she grew up practicing on the ice skating rink in the Lloyd Center-
CW (00:15:58):
Ahh.
HL (00:15:59):
Which is still there today. It is not at its full size anymore, but it is still there today. It is one of these malls that has, like, everybody left, right? There are a couple of stragglers. There is one Hot Topic, there is a Cinnabon-
EW (00:16:11):
<laugh>
HL (00:16:12):
But the rest of it is empty, or it is full- Because it is so dead, they have filled it up with some really cool stuff. It has like gone the other side. There is a really cool Lego store. There are a bunch of vintage stores. There is a great comic store. All of these different creative little businesses, amongst largely empty mall with an occasional Hot Topic.
(00:16:34):
It is quite an interesting venue. And yeah, we have basically become tenants for a month. We have rented out what used to be the Gap, or more accurately, it was like Gap for Women, Gap for Men and Gap Babies. So there are actually three separate areas.
CW (00:16:51):
<laugh>
HL (00:16:51):
Plus we get the back staff room as well, which is really fun. So yeah, we are turning Gap Baby into stage one. <laugh> With all of the changing rooms, we are going to have different installations in them. I am messaging all of my hacker friends right now, like, "Hey, do you want to come do an installation in a Gap changing room, please?"
(00:17:17):
By the time this podcast goes out, the CFP will be live, sorry, the call for proposals. Look at me using acronyms like a naughty person. The call for proposal will be live. We will be asking for people who, if they want to do installations, if they want to put something in their hacker arts exhibit, if they want to take over a Gap fitting room to do something weird.
(00:17:41):
We are also this year, for the first time doing a hackerspace program. One of my favorite things about the Euro hacker events, I used to go to Congress and Camp and all that. I still do actually. But they have this thing where lots and lots of different hackerspaces from all over Europe, they will come and represent their space in this wider space.
(00:18:05):
It is so fun to go from place to place and see people's projects and really get to know different hackerspaces from different locations. So we are doing that. So basically, if you are part of a hackerspace and you want to come, there are some free tickets that we will put out there as well. So yeah, all of that will be out by the time this episode airs.
EW (00:18:31):
What would you put in a Gap changing room? What immersive experience?
HL (00:18:40):
My friend Sherry wants to run a tiny karaoke booth, which is a Euro hacker tradition, actually. We always have karaoke at Euro hacker events.
EW (00:18:52):
Yeah. That would be fun.
HL (00:18:56):
The thing is with Portland, right, there is a bunch of hardware people. But there is also a bunch of weirdo artists. So there are loads of people who are looking at doing installations.
(00:19:06):
There is a guy called Matthew Rempes. He does really interesting CCTV installations, where it takes the visual input from CCTV cameras and turns it into sound and visual art. There are just all sorts of things we are going to do. I do not want to spoil it too much, but there is definitely going to be a number of really interesting experiences in the changing room. <laugh>
EW (00:19:32):
That sounds like a show title.
HL (00:19:33):
<laugh>
EW (00:19:33):
Maybe not this show, but okay. I am like- Okay, what I want to do, is I want to soundproof it so that it is well soundproofed.
HL (00:19:43):
Oh yeah.
EW (00:19:44):
And then put Northern Lights and a heated Adirondack chair-
HL (00:19:50):
Ooh.
EW (00:19:50):
So that you are kind of laying. You cannot lay down in the changing rooms, but something comfortable and solo. And a heated Adirondack chair, and then air condition the crap out of the air. And so you are in winter, but-
HL (00:20:08):
<laugh>
EW (00:20:10):
Okay, never mind. Sorry.
HL (00:20:13):
I am- Yes.
CW (00:20:14):
But with screaming babies coming through the speakers? Where is the changing room come in?
HL (00:20:18):
Oh, my word.
EW (00:20:21):
No, I just want- And I think maybe the Northern Lights would sing the way I always think they should.
HL (00:20:25):
How do you think the Northern Lights would sing, Elecia?
EW (00:20:28):
Well, kind of high pitched with occasional- Kind of like whale songs.
CW (00:20:32):
Okay.
HL (00:20:33):
Oh, I see. I could see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do not think they would be high pitched, though. I think they would be really resonant.
EW (00:20:41):
Depends on the color.
HL (00:20:42):
<laugh> All right.
EW (00:20:44):
The fast colors would be higher pitched.
HL (00:20:47):
All right, I can see that. I can see that.
EW (00:20:49):
Okay. Well, my call for- No, I cannot. I am sorry. I will not be there.
HL (00:20:53):
<laugh>
EW (00:20:53):
Okay. What else are you looking for, for proposals? Am I-
HL (00:21:00):
Oh, proposals? Yeah. People who want to speak about things that are even vaguely related to hardware, open source, discussions about cool materials. Talking about your projects. Talking about things that you find difficult. Lots of show and tells about how to do specific things.
(00:21:16):
But one of my favorite talks of recent years was just a big technical dump around current e-paper. Also there was a really interesting one that was all just about USB-C, just like an hour on USBC, and it was super fascinating. You can get really deep, it is not like surface level talks. You can do. People come and talk about all sorts of things. But you can get quite deep talks as well. So that is cool.
(00:21:49):
Yeah, basically talks, workshops, art exhibit stuff, projects on tables, people coming from hackerspaces, anything really. It is going to be a really fun event. We do lots of stuff together. So if you want to get involved, just say, "Hi."
EW (00:22:08):
Okay. So my origami flex paper, that-
HL (00:22:12):
Yeah!
EW (00:22:12):
Changes automatically because I put electrons in, and so it is a software controlled- I have no idea where I am going with this, because I am not making it. But it sure sounds cool, does it not?
HL (00:22:24):
I would just take some origami and put it on the wall. Why not? <laugh>
EW (00:22:29):
Do not tempt me. My walls are kind of full right now.
CW (00:22:32):
What is you address?
EW (00:22:32):
<laugh>
HL (00:22:34):
I am not going to give it out live on a podcast. <laugh> I do know a thing or two about security. Giving out your address on the air is probably not the best idea. <laugh>
EW (00:22:46):
We do not even really like it when people give their email address on them. <laugh>
HL (00:22:50):
No, me either.
EW (00:22:52):
Okay, so conference.
CW (00:22:55):
I am not done yet.
EW (00:22:55):
Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
CW (00:22:55):
I have questions about the mall.
HL (00:22:56):
Oh, you have questions about the mall?
CW (00:22:56):
Yeah.
EW (00:22:57):
Oh, sorry. Post-apocalyptic with Cinnabon.
CW (00:23:00):
Anyway. <laugh>
HL (00:23:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CW (00:23:03):
A partially empty mall, sounds like actually a perfect place. Because you have got all those rooms that things can be divided up.
HL (00:23:08):
Exactly!
CW (00:23:08):
You have got the long concourse where stuff can be put in.
HL (00:23:10):
Exactly, yeah.
(00:23:12):
How did you end up with that venue being a- Was it like people- Were they reaching out and saying, "Hey, somebody should throw a conference here?" or-
(00:23:21):
No. No. Well, like anything, finding the right venue is the most difficult and important part, I think, really. Because it sets the whole vibe for an event. Right? So I just hit the pavement and I have looked at so many different places! So many different places.
(00:23:35):
I just had gone to the Lloyd Center to go to the comic store, actually, with my friend. She happened to mention that she saw that there was a conference there before. And I thought, "Huh. I actually think a hacker conference inside of a semi abandoned mall would be a really cool idea." So yeah, here we are. I have booked it.
EW (00:24:01):
You actually had a name for these types of spaces?
HL (00:24:04):
Oh, yeah. Like a "liminal space." Well, it is because- Oh, you mean a "meanwhile space"? That is the word I used, right?
EW (00:24:12):
Yeah.
HL (00:24:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So basically what I mean by that- So having done a lot of events on the grassroots side of things, AKA without a budget, I used to use a lot of these quote unquote "meanwhile spaces."
(00:24:26):
What that means is, in the Lloyd Center, it is a dead mall. Within the next three or four years, it is going to be bulldozed and developed. Right? But until then, they are still trying to make a small amount of money, before- They are not going to put new big clients in there, but they do have a lot of space that is available.
(00:24:48):
So if you can find those spaces that are somewhere that they are a couple of years off of being condemned or turned into something different, you can often find really interesting cheap spaces to host events. You just got to hit the pavement and look around. <laugh>
EW (00:25:05):
But this is a lot different than going to your local Marriott, or even your local university and saying, "I have 300 people, five rooms and a ballroom, and I want cheap catering. How much will it be? Just give me the end total, and I will worry about the programming."
HL (00:25:20):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I did look at a few places that were that. This turnkey solution. You turn up, they put the chairs out for you, they handle all the AV, blah, blah, blah. But what I kept coming back to was, there is no get in time, and you do not get any extra space. Whereas we could rent this unit for three weeks, and have two weeks to build up something interesting and creative. Right?
(00:25:46):
I just thought, "Let us experiment. Let us do something really cool. Let us see if we can get the community to come in, and help us create something much more interesting, than 'Let us go listen to some talks at our local Marriott.'" Which is great too. But this is much more immersive and evolving. I want to involve a lot more people, and do a lot more fun things.
EW (00:26:10):
It goes with the flavor of the conference.
HL (00:26:12):
Well, quite. Exactly. If I held it somewhere else, it would have a different flavor. But because I have chosen the Lloyd Center, it has got this slightly edgy, slightly hackery nineties vibe to it. Yeah, I like it. <laugh>
EW (00:26:29):
You are upping the chaos level.
HL (00:26:31):
I am upping the chaos level! But, <laugh> I aim to do that more generally. <laugh>
EW (00:26:37):
<laugh>
CW (00:26:40):
It is a good thing I am not involved, because I would be spending all my time pushing for a eighties vintage retro arcade.
HL (00:26:46):
Oh, we are having one.
CW (00:26:47):
Oh good. <laugh>
HL (00:26:52):
<laugh> Do not worry. We have got all sorts of fun things planned.
EW (00:26:55):
If we are going, you have to let me know, so that I can plan these proposals.
CW (00:26:59):
Not until June.
HL (00:27:00):
It is not until June. Yeah. A bit of chaos is a bit of fun, in my opinion, I think. You got to leave a little corner for chaos.
EW (00:27:10):
Oh, "chaotic good" is my spirit level. Yes.
HL (00:27:15):
That is my alignment. Always has been, always will be. It is my D&D alignment. "Chaotic good," or at least "chaotic neutral." <laugh>
EW (00:27:24):
<laugh> Yes. Sometimes. You cannot be consistent if you are chaos.
HL (00:27:28):
Exactly.
EW (00:27:29):
I love chaos, as long as I am causing it. Okay. So what are the factors that go into choosing how to put on this conference? We talked a little bit about the logistics, which you have decided to brew your own.
HL (00:27:45):
Mm-hmm. I have. I am a very DIY person, though. I have always been involved in the DIY hacker culture. So to me, that is just the world that I am much more comfortable in. Plus you get a bit more control as well.
(00:27:56):
But I guess you have got to decide who you are talking to. You have got to think about your audience. Think about what they enjoy. Think about what they might enjoy. Think about their comfort levels, and a range of different things.
(00:28:09):
I think it is really important to think about the evening stuff as well, because I do not love conferences that just degenerate into drinking. At the end of- Do you know what I mean? So if the only option is, "We can go to the bar," I just think, "Fine, go to the bar." That is totally great. But it is much more fun and more wholesome to do other stuff. Right?
(00:28:32):
So on the Friday night afterwards, there is a reception at Autodesk. They have got this fancy office in Portland. They always do something for us. And then the Saturday night, we do a party at the Hackerspace called "Control H," which is always super fun.
(00:28:54):
We also typically will do a scavenger hunt as well around Portland. So we will have to see if that- That would be really fun, would it not? A scavenger hunt around. We do cycle rides as well last year. So it is just nice to have an array of pre-game, post-game, and then after-party stuff. So it is not just the conference, and it is not just drinking. I think it is healthier. <laugh>
EW (00:29:19):
How much does it cost to attend?
HL (00:29:21):
Well, that depends on when you buy your ticket.
EW (00:29:23):
True.
HL (00:29:23):
So we have a few different levels. There is an early bird, which will be live the day this podcast goes live. We do have a pre-sale, which is the cheapest level, and that is only for newsletter subscribers. So that goes out every year. And then it goes- I cannot remember what we have chosen this year, but it was something like- It is like 150, I think.
(00:29:54):
We also do also have a low income ticket program as well, which you can get a ticket for $40, if you are struggling. And we have lots and lots of volunteer positions as well. So depending on when you get it, it is between $75 and $250 basically is the price range.
(00:30:21):
I do reserve the right to be wrong here, <laugh> because we have not fully crunched all of the numbers. Yeah, we have a range of them, depending on what. But lots and lots of opportunities for free stuff too.
EW (00:30:39):
You mentioned volunteer opportunities, so people who cannot afford it, and there are lots of other activities. So if you are in the area and maybe want to pop in for a brunch, you can just say "Hello" to everyone without-
HL (00:30:53):
Oh, you totally can. Yeah. All of the pre- and post-game stuff is just general entry. You do not have to have a ticket to go to the screening of "Hackers" at OMSI. I mean, you have to get a ticket to the screening, but you do not have to have a ticket to Teardown.
(00:31:07):
The Hardware Happy Hour, anybody can come. That is the whole point of Hardware Happy Hours. And the pre- and post-game stuff, we want everybody to be able to come. The Control H members will come to the Saturday night party, even if they are not part of the conference itself. So yeah, there are lots of opportunities to get involved.
EW (00:31:29):
And this actually is not your job. I mean, it is part of your job.
HL (00:31:34):
No, no. This is very little of my job. It is going to be taking up a certain amount of my time this year. But no, this is a side quest for me. Definitely. I do quite a few events and it is something that is enjoyable to me, but it is certainly not something that I spend my day doing.
(00:31:50):
I have never worked professionally in events or marketing or anything like that. So yeah, it is definitely a side quest for me. But a big side quest, and an exciting fun side quest. It primarily- My job involves finding and vetting new submissions for Crowd Supply, which is the company I work for. Do you want me to talk a little bit about that, or?
EW (00:32:16):
Yeah. My idea of Crowd Supply is something like in the Kickstarter, Etsy, Tindie family.
HL (00:32:26):
Yeah, I mean-
EW (00:32:28):
Is that the right sort of area to put it, or?
HL (00:32:32):
In the same kind of area, yeah, in that we are a platform for crowdfunding and selling open or somewhat open hardware devices. The primary function of my job at Crowd Supply is to assess new projects. So we have got a lot of criteria. We are not just self-service. You actually have to apply to be a Crowd Supply campaign.
(00:32:56):
It is not for everybody. We require a certain level of openness. We require a fully functional final prototype before moving to campaign, which is a deal breaker for a lot of people. We are not going to campaign on a render. Right? The product actually has to exist before we accept it. We have got a bunch of other questions as well.
(00:33:20):
Me and my boss, Josh Lifton, who is the co-founder of Crowd Supply, we meet every day and we just go over all of these submissions. We cannot be domain experts in every single type of technology, but we are trying to do due diligence, research what they are doing, try and find what equivalents in the market.
(00:33:40):
We just do our homework. That is what I spend a lot of my time doing, is asking questions, doing a lot of research about other people's projects. Contracts, emails, yada, yada. It is all good. And that is the intake.
(00:33:59):
But I also do quite a bit of outreach as well. By which I mean, I just message people or talk to people at conferences if I think they are doing something cool and say, "Hi, we exist. FYI." But yeah, super light touch. I do not do a lot of that. Mostly it is assessing and questioning new projects.
EW (00:34:22):
I am just finishing up the last Classpert cohort. That means the students turned in their projects, and I got to write critiques for them.
HL (00:34:35):
Oh, I hate doing that. <laugh>
EW (00:34:36):
Well, my goal with the students is that they make a portfolio project for interviews. I want them to make something they like, and something they would be happy to work on in the future.
HL (00:34:47):
That is nice, though.
EW (00:34:48):
So my criteria is pretty loose. The best part about it is learning all about the new sensors and applications and ideas people have. I just love that part.
HL (00:34:58):
Oh, for sure.
EW (00:35:00):
Do you end up with 45 open tabs at the end of the day?
HL (00:35:07):
At least! <laugh> One of the reasons why I think I am well suited for this job, is I had ten years as a freelancer. I have worked with basically every microcontroller, common microcontroller out there. Most of the common sensors that exist. I have even made projects using the Intel Galileo, forgive me for my sins.
(00:35:30):
I would not say that I have a very deep knowledge in any particular genre of hardware. But I have a very broad knowledge of what exists, what is out there, what people are doing with it. So yeah, I try and keep up on that. It is probably the thing I enjoy the most about the job, is seeing what other people are making.
(00:35:52):
Seeing what people are up to. Seeing the trends. Seeing what new silicon people are excited about. Or what new open library has resulted in something unexpected. I really enjoy that aspect of it, getting that bird's eye view of what independent hardware makers are doing at any one time.
(00:36:15):
For example, during the chip crisis, there was a noticeable- You could just see- If it was not ESP32 or RP2040, you were just out of luck. So I would see all these FPGA projects coming in, and them being like sobbing, because they could not get anything for two years, basically.
(00:36:34):
So the only things that we were getting in were based on the available silicon. Which was really interesting to see how people got creative with what they had available. It was pretty cool.
EW (00:36:49):
Did you write critiques? Do you tell people, "Yes, as long as you..." or, "No, thank you. This is why."
HL (00:36:55):
Yeah. It is a whole conversation, and-
EW (00:36:56):
Cool.
HL (00:36:56):
Oh no, absolutely. We go into depth, really. I try and give good feedback, particularly if it is for somebody who is starting out. Sometimes it is a perfectly good device, that just does not really work for Crowd Supply.
(00:37:10):
Or if there is nothing that is open. It is not like that it has to be open source hardware, certified gold standard. You do not have to have designed it in KiCad, and release your editable board files. But we need you to release firmware and at least a schematic, so people can actually see what is going on behind your black box of technology.
(00:37:37):
As an indie creator, sometimes you fall off the map, right? It is not like you are going to be doing that product forever. So it is really nice that people will actually be able to see and possibly service these devices, even if the creator drops off the map, because they know what is in it and how it works.
EW (00:37:55):
That is a good thing to remember, that indie hardware folks do not always realize, is that they are going to want to go on and be done with this at some point.
HL (00:38:06):
Mm-hmm. Aha.
EW (00:38:06):
Are there other common pitfalls that the indie hardware folks?
HL (00:38:12):
Oh gosh, yeah. Lots. There are some things that are- I would say people do not know a lot about logistics. We get a lot of creators who are engineers, but do not know a lot about anything else.
(00:38:24):
So stuff like, if you are importing an assembled board from China these days, you are going to have a 25% tariff when you are importing a lot of goods. If you are just someone who has worked with JLCPCB, you have got a PCBA here, PCBA there, you probably will not know that. It can really destroy your profit margin if you do not account for that. Or not manufacture in China, but there are- Obviously it is cheaper. Knowing about that tariff, that trips a lot of people up.
(00:38:56):
People underprice their products a lot. I blame Raspberry Pi for that. They have got unrealistically, inexpensive hardware and people think that they have to compete. Well, that is not true. Particularly for crowd supply, actually, our customers are not very price sensitive. They would rather have the luxury version with all of the bells and whistles, rather than this is a cheap board.
(00:39:23):
Underpricing is a big deal. I see people who have really destroy themselves down the road by underpricing, because if your product takes off, you want it to be sold by distributors. Well, if you do not have an extra 40% margin assigned to that, then your distributor is not- You are not going to get a distribution deal, because the distributor wants their cut. And if you do not price that in from the beginning, you are going to be in trouble. So definitely underpricing is a big one.
(00:39:55):
Thinking that engineering is the only task. I get a lot of this.
EW (00:40:02):
<laugh> Well, yes. Is it not?
HL (00:40:02):
They are like, "I have made the hardware. Now I am just going to put it on a website, and I will get lots of customers, right?"
EW (00:40:12):
Yes, of course.
HL (00:40:12):
Right?
EW (00:40:12):
Why would I not? It is brilliant! If I build it, they will come. <laugh>
CW (00:40:16):
<laugh>
HL (00:40:19):
I bump into that, time and time and time again. It is not true. The people who do really well, are not just the people who are good at hardware. It is the people who are good at hardware and good at communication. And then that could be writing or that could be video, whatever. You just have to have a way that you can actually speak to people. Particularly in indie hardware, people want to buy from people.
(00:40:46):
If it is just yet- What we call YAMCB, right? Yet Another MicroController Board. If it is just yet another microcontroller dev board, and you have got no community or anything, you are just not going to find an audience. So yeah, thinking that your engineering is the most important thing in terms of making a product. But there is so much after that.
(00:41:06):
What else? Oh yeah. People who do not get feedback early on. Again, similar to build it and they will come. They secretly work away for ages on this device, making up a solution. But they have not actually tested it, with anybody who might want to buy it. They have not gotten proper feedback at different runs, and then they just launch it and expect what was in their brain to be perfect for everybody else. Getting early feedback is really important, but people often neglect to even talk to anybody about it.
EW (00:41:51):
Well, no. They might tell me it is a bad idea.
HL (00:41:55):
<laugh> That is actually good. That is good though, right? You want people to pick at it. I mean, you cannot please everybody. You cannot go away and try and incorporate every single feedback you get. And sometimes you have to take people's feedback with a pinch of salt, but you have got to get it out there and see what people are saying. It is valuable even if they do not like it. Especially if they do not like it, actually.
EW (00:42:18):
But there is some difficulty there.
HL (00:42:21):
Sure.
EW (00:42:24):
Okay, so I am working on the last images in my book, and it is going badly. That is fine. It will work out. But showing them to people and saying, "There is something wrong with this," and having people say, "It is just bad. There is no good," was really hard. I did not like it and I knew it was not true, because I had had other people say, "This makes sense."
(00:42:48):
Yes, I see where you are going with this, but that whole, how do you know who to trust? How do you decide how- I only hear the negative feedback.
HL (00:43:02):
Of course. And listen, I have been roasted on the internet and it is not a pleasant feeling. People are mean when they do not know you, as well.
EW (00:43:10):
<sigh> Yeah.
HL (00:43:10):
So I would just say, cast a really broad net, and do not take any one data point as- Take it as an average, right? Do not take the meanest, or the most praise filled feedback. So cast a broad net, but also do it in real life as well. People are much less likely to be horrible in real life.
EW (00:43:34):
That is true. <laugh> Although most of my real life is Christopher, and-
CW (00:43:41):
I am horrible.
EW (00:43:41):
He usually likes me.
CW (00:43:42):
Oh.
EW (00:43:42):
So it is easier.
HL (00:43:46):
It is also about how you talk about it as well, particularly with regards to hardware. People are allergic to, "Here is my startup. Here is my product. Come and buy it. Here is an advert."
(00:44:00):
But if you are asking people for genuine feedback, and actually listening to it, I think- And engaging in places that it is relevant to engage, not just spraying spam everywhere. I think you can still get some really quality feedback from the internet, if you ask nicely.
EW (00:44:25):
And if you ask the right people. And you do not just ask everybody everything. And keep saying, "I sent you an email, how come you have not responded yet?" It does not do you any good.
HL (00:44:39):
Yeah. No, I agree.
EW (00:44:42):
It has been hard for me to figure out how to get the right amount and right quality of feedback, sometimes.
HL (00:44:53):
It is true.
EW (00:44:54):
The idea that you give some critique for projects, is amazing to me. I do know how long that takes.
HL (00:45:02):
Yeah, obviously if it is really not relevant for the audience, then it is much quicker. But if it is relevant to the audience, but it is just not quite right- I will often see a lot of people trying to compete on cost, doing a lower cost Arduino Uno clone or whatever. I am like, "Two dollars is not going to make any difference."
(00:45:28):
But in that instance, it is like they have clearly got the skills to design a good piece of hardware. It is just that they are putting those skills to use in a really saturated area, for example, or they are using really old stuff. We can point people in direction if it is design, or we can-
(00:45:51):
A lot of the time it is that people do not have prototypes, and they do not have anything. So we just tell them to go away, and come back once they do actually have a real device. We actually do get people back in.
(00:46:05):
I always say I am very happy to be proven wrong on any count. As I said earlier, we cannot be domain experts in every single genre of technology. It is just that we invest quite a lot into the people we work with, both in terms of time, but also money.
(00:46:27):
I guess I should have mentioned this earlier. Basically, yes, we do crowdfunding campaigns, but that is the start of their relationship with us. So Crowd Supply- So if you earn- We match fund basically.
EW (00:46:44):
Hmm.
HL (00:46:44):
So if you earn like 50 grand on your crowdfunding campaign, we will place an order paid in advance for an additional up to $50,000 worth of product. So we basically instantly become your biggest customer. We will pay that in advance, along with the crowdfunding money. So basically you get double, in advance.
(00:47:05):
You have to deliver product. We do not take equity or anything like that. We are literally just placing a large advanced order, and then we sell that. But also our parent company, which is Mouser Electronics, they sell that.
(00:47:17):
So any successful creator- I should not say any. Most successful creators go on to be distributed with a non-exclusive deal with Mouser Electronics, and that is international as well. That is not a small amount of work, to set somebody up as a Mouser supplier. And to set up all of these orders and to get them onto our system. So that is one of the reasons we are quite choosy, as we invest a lot into our project.
EW (00:47:47):
It makes a lot of sense that that is why you have to spend the time upfront. Well, I did not realize that. It is pretty cool.
HL (00:47:53):
Yeah, yeah. No, it is a really good deal actually. It helps indie creators really get those lower production costs. I think that is one of the most powerful things that we offer. Along with the whole Mouser situation. That is another thing that they do, is they do all the delivery.
EW (00:48:15):
Oh. Yes.
HL (00:48:16):
They do all of the logistics for all of our campaigns. So basically our creators just send our warehouse one big box of product. The Mouser warehouse team will pick and pack it to all of their crowdfunding customers, and all of their future customers as well. So you do not have to touch an address label with us. <laugh>
EW (00:48:38):
As somebody who is allergic to address labels, I totally like that.
HL (00:48:40):
Oh, seriously. I know I have done a bunch of my own little projects before. The worst time I ever had, was when I was like, "You know what? I am going to make my own thing. And I am going to ship it out myself." And then I got a few orders in and I was like, "Oh, this is terrible!"
EW (00:48:57):
Yes. Like, "What did I do!?"
HL (00:48:58):
<laugh> "This is terrible. No! Why did I try and distribute it myself?"
CW (00:49:01):
<laugh>
HL (00:49:01):
Never again. <laugh> Yeah. Some people like that. Some people really like taking control of that side of things, but me, no I hate it.
EW (00:49:14):
I have a couple listener questions. One is from Chris Greenley, and we already answered this, but "Are there dates for Teardown 2024?"
HL (00:49:22):
Yes, the 21st through the 23rd of June, 2024. There will be pre- and post-game stuff as well. So you can stick around or come early.
EW (00:49:31):
That will be in Portland, Oregon?
HL (00:49:33):
Indeed, it will.
EW (00:49:34):
Is there a remote aspect to this?
HL (00:49:37):
There typically is. The answer is that depends on what internet I can get installed. <laugh> So maybe. We will see, basically. We will see on the internet. We would typically do it.
(00:49:52):
We will release the videos for free on YouTube afterwards, if we cannot stream it. If the Internet is not good enough for streaming, then we we will release them afterwards. Yeah, we did do it last year. But it is not a minor undertaking, to do a decent job of streaming.
EW (00:50:12):
None of this is a minor undertaking. <laugh>
HL (00:50:17):
So yeah, I am not sure. So the streaming is one thing that I am- That is like a nice to have, rather than an essential. And that is very much dependent on the internet situation. So, yeah.
EW (00:50:30):
Sila asked, "What is your favorite band?"
HL (00:50:33):
Oh, my goodness!
CW (00:50:34):
What?
HL (00:50:34):
Well, what is my favorite band?
EW (00:50:38):
Yeah, that one seems kind of hard.
HL (00:50:40):
It is really difficult. I could tell you things I have been listening to a lot recently. So I have been listening to Janelle Monáe. She is poppier than you might expect. But Janelle Monáe, a lot of people might know her for her acting, actually, I do not know. But she also does some really, really awesome Afrofuturism sci-fi stuff.
(00:51:03):
And she did this whole two concept albums, that was all around this Android that fell in love with a human, and was being chased and she had to escape. Then it turns out she is some kind of special being.
(00:51:22):
I really enjoyed the fact that she used video, plus music, plus she actually released a bunch of prose as well around that. So I thought that was super cool, that multimedia aspect to it. So I have really been digging a lot of her work recently.
(00:51:42):
But in terms of our favorite band, that is too difficult. Let us just say Led Zeppelin.
CW (00:51:45):
<laugh>
EW (00:51:45):
<laugh>
HL (00:51:45):
How about that? Let us just say that. No one is going to get fired for saying "Led Zeppelin," right? Let us just go with that. Yeah. I grew up with a lot of Led Zeppelin with my dad was a big fan of Led Zeppelin. So let us just choose that.
(00:51:59):
Ooh, I have got a music thing to share, actually. I am only sharing this because I told my boss this yesterday, and he had no idea. So you know the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy radio play?
CW (00:52:10):
Yes.
EW (00:52:10):
Mm-hmm.
HL (00:52:10):
You know the entrance tune?
EW (00:52:13):
Somewhat.
HL (00:52:13):
On the banjo <sings>.
CW (00:52:17):
Yes, I remember it now.
HL (00:52:18):
Yeah, you know it. That is actually- It is not an intro tune. It is actually a full length track by the Eagles. And it rocks! So if you did not know that was not an intro-
CW (00:52:28):
Huh. It is the Eagles?
HL (00:52:28):
Yes! The Eagles!
EW (00:52:30):
That does sound like the Eagles.
HL (00:52:32):
I know! Literally go and give it a listen. I am terrified I have said the wrong band name now. No, I am certain it is the Eagles. But yeah, it is called "The Journey of the Sorcerer." If you are a Hitchhiker's fan, you will definitely enjoy it. <laugh>
EW (00:52:49):
Sila would also like to know if you have a favorite fruit-
CW (00:52:55):
<laugh>
EW (00:52:55):
To make an instrument of.
HL (00:52:56):
Ohh! Okay. Now that changes my answer.
EW (00:53:02):
<laugh> It was going to be blueberries, but she just cannot play those. <laugh>
HL (00:53:05):
Oh, yeah. You can play a blueberry. You can definitely play a blueberry. You can play anything pretty much, as long as you are using the right microcontroller. <laugh> Most fruit- It is just water, right? The classic is the banana. Of course, everybody has played the banana. Well, not everybody, but a lot of people have <laugh> played a banana.
EW (00:53:31):
<laugh>
CW (00:53:32):
I use it for all my phone calls, but I do not know about playing.
HL (00:53:35):
Right. Actually, the funnest thing that I made with fruit to play, was actually not the fruit itself. I made a bunch of raspberry jelly that I used as- I made them in these molds, and then I used them as bongos, and it was- <laugh> Oh my gosh, it was so funny. Like the slap- <laugh>
EW (00:53:59):
And the wiggle.
HL (00:53:59):
I amused myself.
EW (00:54:00):
The wiggle.
HL (00:54:01):
Oh, my word, the slap, the jiggle, the- Oh my God. It was just so-
CW (00:54:06):
Nope, we are not using that for title. I see you typing that for title. We are not using that for title.
EW (00:54:10):
"The slap and the jiggle." <laugh>
CW (00:54:11):
Nope, not using that.
HL (00:54:12):
The slap, the jiggle and then the synth noise. I mean, who could ask for more? Yeah. Yeah. So that is my fruit question. My favorite fruit in general is probably a good old apple.
EW (00:54:26):
What can you play on an apple?
HL (00:54:28):
Anything.
CW (00:54:29):
Anything. They run Logic and Ableton.
EW (00:54:33):
<laugh> Okay.
HL (00:54:33):
<laugh>
EW (00:54:34):
Last one from Sila. "How did you get good at writing?"
HL (00:54:39):
Ohh. How did I get- The same way you get good at anything.
EW (00:54:43):
Practice? Yeah.
HL (00:54:44):
By doing it.
CW (00:54:45):
No, everybody hates that answer.
HL (00:54:48):
I know! It is the worst answer.
CW (00:54:49):
So frustrating.
HL (00:54:52):
I know. You just got to do it. That is all I am saying. You got to do it, and you got to read a lot and write. You are what you do. So as long as- When you are writing, you are a writer. In terms of, if you are looking at that question as "How do you do it professionally?" then just- You need three things on your portfolio.
(00:55:17):
They always say you have got to have three things. I have worked at X, X and X. So if you have got three things, you can make an interesting sentence out of it. So get three things on your CV or resume, whatever you call it here. And then you can start shopping yourself around.
(00:55:34):
Writing is good, but you have to have something to write about as well. So there is the content side of it, and then there is the stylistic side of it. I would not say- I am not an amazing prose writer or anything. I would consider my writing- Oh my gosh, I did do some journalism stuff as well. But primarily speaking, I would consider myself like a writer of recipes. But the recipes are for electronics rather than food.
EW (00:56:06):
A writer of recipes. I consider myself a writer of stories, even as I am working on a technical book. You say writer of recipes, and I am like, "Okay, yeah, there are different kinds of writers."
HL (00:56:16):
Oh, totally. I have done a bunch of different kinds of writing as well, but the recipes are easy to sell in. Everybody always needs a make. Everybody always needs, "Here is a cool project that uses this cool thing." If you can write it up nicely and make sure it is current, then it is relatively easy to get paid for an article. Yeah, there is the skill, but then there is also having a sense for content, and what fits in at the places you can sell.
EW (00:56:49):
If you write it, they will come. See.
HL (00:56:52):
No. <laugh> No, unfortunately. People have to know about you, and people have to remember that you exist as well. That is basically what my Twitter was for, back in the day when I was a big Twitter person.
(00:57:07):
Partially it was sharing the projects that I do, and partially it is just reminding people that I exist. So that when a project comes up, they are like, "Oh, I remember this person. Maybe we should get her in to write this thing."
EW (00:57:24):
Now you work for Crowd Supply, where before you used to do conferences more grassroots, and be part of them and organize, but not be in charge. And before you used to have communities and support communities, and talk to people about their projects, and be interested and write about them. And you did all that for fun, and now they are paying you to do it?
HL (00:57:48):
It is true. I have done a 180 on what I do for fun, and what I do to get paid. Like, for a bunch of years I would-
EW (00:57:56):
Are you doing accounting for fun? You can tell me.
HL (00:57:59):
I am not doing accounting for fun. My word! No, on tax day I am usually crying, do not worry. <laugh> No. While I was working as a maker / writer / whatever it was that I could do to make money, I did a lot of community work just on my own. Just because I loved it. Just because I have gotten so much from the hacker and maker community myself.
(00:58:31):
When I say, "I am a self-taught maker," actually that is nonsense. I have been taught by the community. I have been taught by people in hackerspaces. I have been taught by my friend in a kitchen. I have been taught by YouTubers. I just really want to be able to give back to that kind of community. So I really enjoyed doing- I did that for fun. But also as a sense of obligation, and also as a sense of activism.
(00:59:03):
But I got to a point where I was making things- I was really dissatisfied with the way- Because when you are making something, and you have always got to make it help you pay your rent, you have always got to make sure it sits in six pages. Or you are explaining the same things over and over and over again.
(00:59:21):
I have explained what PWM is, like a million times. Honestly, I got to a point where if I had to explain PWM again, I probably would have just laid down and died.
EW (00:59:32):
<laugh>
HL (00:59:32):
I was so over it. I was so over the recipe writing. I was really ready to do bigger, more ambitious projects, that would not really work for the content that I was making. So I consciously made a decision to go into a more traditional job job.
(00:59:56):
So I am not making my own devices, I am helping other people make theirs. I am running events. Like any job job. A lot of it is contracts and emails. But I did that on purpose, so that I can get all this spare time to make stuff. Now, obviously when you work full time, it does not always work like that, but that was the idea.
(01:00:18):
That I would start getting paid for my hardware community work. And then have the brain space and the evenings to really advance my technical skills and work on my own project. So that was the idea. It has been a really difficult transition.
(01:00:34):
And also, I immigrated to a new country in December 2020, which was very complex and confusing. But now I know my way around, and I have rebuilt my workshop. It is actually starting to turn out like I had hoped. I mean, Monday to Friday, I do not have any energy to work on my own projects.
(01:00:55):
But on the weekend, or say over Christmas period, I actually do manage to get stuck in and work on some of the projects that I always- And level up some of my skills in ways that was difficult for me to do, while I was constantly hustling, making these projects. So yeah, it has been a weird change, but it is starting to pay off, I think.
EW (01:01:20):
Cool. You mentioned you were working on a sequencer.
HL (01:01:23):
Yeah, I am working on a sequencer. To be honest with you, it is a project that I am working on for an educational aim. I have messed around in KiCad a bunch of times in previous versions, but the new version of KiCad 7 is a huge step up.
(01:01:42):
Everyone is saying, "Oh, it is so much better. Blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "Right. Fine. This is my project to learn KiCad 7." Because I have been seeing everybody's beautiful renders, and I am like, "Ooh, look at these real nice things that are coming out from KiCad 7".
(01:01:59):
The days of SVG to Shenzhen are thankfully over. It used to be so painful to make something pretty in KiCad, but it is much more enjoyable now. So I have been focusing in on that.
(01:02:12):
I have designed a bunch of breakout boards and stuff before. But I have never designed my whole system from scratch, like with USB, microcontroller, power, everything. So everything on one board. So it is really an exercise for me to level up my PCB design skills. And also become much more comfortable with KiCad as a piece of software.
(01:02:37):
Also just as a design exercise. It has been really interesting. Yeah, I have been working with my friend. I do not know if you know Timon?
CW (01:02:46):
Oh, yeah.
EW (01:02:47):
Yeah.
HL (01:02:48):
Yeah. Okay. So Timon is my friend from German hacker circles. We have been talking maybe once a month, I would say, for the last year or so. He has been super generous with his time. I will ask him a bunch of questions. I will do all my own work, and then I will be like, "Why is this like this? What happens here?"
(01:03:11):
We did this really fascinating- Because I have always been a little bit nervous about USBC, because there is so much you can do. But we did this really interesting session, where we just sat there for an hour, and all we did was look side by side at different open source hardware. Their implementations over USBC. We could look at the commonalities.
(01:03:34):
While I can read my own schematics, having somebody there who is an experienced designer where I could be like, "Why have they done that? Why is this bit different to this?" This is what I call "design engineering". That stuff is much harder to learn.
(01:03:50):
I can learn KiCad on my own. I can look at a reference design on my own. But it is about the design choices that I felt were not really visible to me, as someone who does not have formal training in electronics design.
(01:04:08):
When I say electronics design, I am not talking like analog or RF. Analog designs are witchcraft to me. I am talking about moving components around on a PCB, right? <laugh> But still all the design decisions that go into that. It has been really fascinating to be able to speak to someone on a semi-regular basis, about the decisions that I have been making. Yeah, it has been really fun. I have really enjoyed it.
(01:04:38):
And KiCad 7 actually is way better than the previous one. If you take nothing away, I definitely recommend taking a peek at KiCad 7 if you have not already.
EW (01:04:50):
Huh.
HL (01:04:50):
It is a good one. Well, they put a bunch of money into it. I know that CERN put a couple of their engineers on KiCad for a couple of years. I do not know if they are still going, but that really stepped up the whole program for that software. Definitely. Yeah, it is good.
EW (01:05:15):
Cool. Oh, but you were going to ask us about the Raspberry Pi.
HL (01:05:17):
I was going to ask you about the Raspberry Pi. My question to you- You are like, "Do you have any questions?" And I do have a question for you, actually. For my sequencer that I have been working on, I am using the RP2040 as the microcontroller for this device.
(01:05:36):
I am primarily using the RP2040, because it has got really great documentation for someone like me. I can go in and I can really look at the example board designs. They do really lay out a lot of the reasons behind the reference design. So I have been finding- The main reason why I have chosen RP2040 is the good documentation, as well as the community support.
(01:06:01):
However, I was wondering if you take away that community support and the docs and frankly the availability of the RP2040, how do you rate the actual functionality of the silicon? As somebody who has done a lot of embedded design and used a lot of different chips. So yeah, that is my question.
CW (01:06:24):
I think it is pretty good. It has a nice selection of peripherals. The core is a Cortex-M0. So you can compare it to all the other Cortex-M0s out there. It has got the programmable I/Os, which are interesting for certain uses.
HL (01:06:40):
Yes! Yeah. I am going to use those. Well, I am going to try and use the PIO. That is one of the reasons I chose the RP2040, because I want to play with the PIO functionality. Sorry. Carry on.
CW (01:06:50):
I think the only weird thing is something you mentioned last episode Elecia, is that it does not have internal flash.
EW (01:06:56):
Right.
HL (01:06:56):
Mm-hmm.
CW (01:06:56):
So that makes it more expensive. Expensive, I think, to integrate into a system.
EW (01:07:01):
It makes it more complex to put on a board.
CW (01:07:02):
Right. But you also have to- If you are price comparing-
EW (01:07:07):
Right.
CW (01:07:07):
An MCU with internal flash against the RP2040, it is not apples to apples.
HL (01:07:11):
No.
EW (01:07:12):
And that has manufacturing implications as well. Some good, some bad. Unfortunately, I hear a lot of people saying they are going to use the PIO, and I do not see a lot of people using PIO-
CW (01:07:24):
<laugh> Yeah. Well, yeah.
EW (01:07:24):
Which worries me a little bit. I do not like that about it.
HL (01:07:29):
Hmm. Yeah.
CW (01:07:30):
Is it just that it turns out to not be necessary, because it has got all the other peripherals?
EW (01:07:35):
It ends up being a-
CW (01:07:37):
I mean, it is tricky.
EW (01:07:37):
The thing is-
CW (01:07:37):
It is not something you are just going to do as a C programmer in a minute.
EW (01:07:40):
It has got great documentation. You get used to using the libraries. And you get used to it being pretty simple. You can prototype everything on Wokwi, which is brilliant.
HL (01:07:53):
Yes, that is true about Wokwi.
EW (01:07:55):
But then you get to the PIO and now it is hard. Maybe if it was hard the whole time, you would be like, "Okay, I can do this. I will push through." Or maybe it would always have been that hard, and you would just not be willing to fuss with it.
(01:08:12):
So I am interested in hearing if you do successfully use the PIO. I am not saying nobody has. People definitely have, and I have had at least one student successfully do it. I just end up having a lot of students that say, "That is my plan." And I am like, "You know there is already an I2C port, right?"
CW (01:08:30):
Oh. Yeah. Certainly-
EW (01:08:32):
Do not use it if you do not have to.
CW (01:08:34):
Be using it for something weird, not for something normal.
EW (01:08:37):
Or something fast.
CW (01:08:37):
Yeah.
HL (01:08:38):
Yeah. I have seen some examples of code, but I have not spun up the board yet. Actually one of the other reasons I am embarking on this design journey, is I am really interested in production. Back in the mists of time, I used to work in book publishing. I was always really interested in the production side there, like the paper weights and the different finishes and so on.
(01:09:06):
After listening to Bunnie talk about- Sorry, Bunnie Huang, talk about all the different advanced PCB services you can get these days, I have been- And of course seeing all of the different artistic ways in which people are using silk screens, and different layers on the PCB, in the wider hacker and to a certain extent badge culture as well.
(01:09:26):
I just really want to learn how to make cool effects on a PCB. That is what I really love. I just like the nitty gritty of how things are made, and how things are actually laid down, and different production options. I just think that is super interesting to me.
EW (01:09:46):
I am on a Discord where there is a channel called "Cute PCB."
HL (01:09:49):
Aah.
EW (01:09:49):
It has the neatest PCBs. And they are all colored. It is a maker- I think you are on it too, but I do not know if you play there.
HL (01:10:01):
I do not do anything anymore. I am a hermit.
EW (01:10:03):
But they talk about how to get things to look right. What to put copper under, so you get a translucent effect versus a colored effect.
HL (01:10:11):
Yeah, exactly.
EW (01:10:13):
I am so amazed by that.
HL (01:10:14):
Exactly.
EW (01:10:15):
Teardown last year had at least one, maybe two, talks about making pretty PCBs.
HL (01:10:19):
Yeah, we did. It is so much more accessible than it used to be to get these things done, and so much cheaper as well. You can do some really interesting things. Yeah, that is very much the kind of thing that we would go into at Teardown. Very much. We live that production stuff. That is what I am saying, the practical side of electronics. It is super interesting.
EW (01:10:48):
The practical side, making your board look like the cute cat.
HL (01:10:53):
<laugh> Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
EW (01:10:55):
So I have a question about your job again, and being "Head of Community."
HL (01:10:59):
Yes.
EW (01:10:59):
Which is kind of a weird title. Does not really- I do not know that that is what you do, but community is something I do think about with you.
HL (01:11:09):
It is true.
EW (01:11:10):
You mentioned earlier, you are not on Twitter anymore. You are not doing social media. Where are you finding community these days?
HL (01:11:19):
So historically I used to go to the internet to find community. To share my projects, and to find other people who were interested in the same weird things as me. But as I have gotten older and more involved in the hacker community, and also as I have relied less on social media to find work, I find that I am actually going to real life events. And setting up real life meetups to fulfill the same need.
(01:11:48):
So being able to share my projects in real life with people on a table in front of them, there is no one who is being mean to me. I just could not stand the sniping at me on social media. It was just every so often it was just there. You might hear 100 positive things and then one bad thing. But then I would just always get hung up on the one bad thing.
(01:12:13):
So I would just be like,"You know what? This is not worth it for me anymore. I am not actually having fun. I feel bad about sharing my projects." So I just stopped engaging really with social media. And started-
(01:12:27):
I started Hardware Happy Hour in Portland, which has over 500 members now. I started Sound Hackers, so I could find other people who are making instruments. I have just actually done the work in the city I live in, to find people that I really vibe with.
(01:12:45):
Also going to interesting conferences that are really relevant to me, and the kind of culture that I want to be part of. Yeah, definitely taken a step away from social media in the last few years, that is for sure.
EW (01:13:01):
That makes sense. It is hard to find a good community.
HL (01:13:05):
It is. I had to build one. Both of the events that I go to in Portland, are ones that I created. Partially because when I moved to Portland, I did not have any friends. I moved there December 2020, when nobody was accepting friendship applications.
EW (01:13:21):
<laugh>
HL (01:13:23):
I spent a lot of- I had moved from Europe, so basically by the time I finished work, everybody I knew was asleep. So I was super lonely. Then my friend Jerry, who is also a hardware hacker, moved to Portland as well. And we were like, "We have got to find friends. How are we going to find friends? We are dying of loneliness and frustrated geekiness."
(01:13:45):
So I started Hardware Happy Hour, directly because I wanted to find friends, nerdy friends in the neighborhood. And you know what? It really, really worked. I have met so many interesting people, and seen so many cool projects, just by setting up this event.
(01:14:08):
It does not actually take that much work to do. You just find a bar that is friendly to you, and choose a day. Always Tuesday, used to always choose Tuesdays. But it does not take a lot once you have set it up. It really is such a rewarding thing to do, and such a valuable thing to do actually.
EW (01:14:29):
Yeah, human connections are very important.
HL (01:14:31):
Yeah, they are. It is easy to downplay the importance of meetups and community, when it comes to technology. I think this idea of this lone genius sat at his computer, always a "his," at his computer with his hoodie up, typing on his own. But that is nonsense.
(01:14:55):
We learn from each other. By coming together and sharing what we are working on, we are raising everybody's game.
EW (01:15:04):
Thank you so much. Helen, do you have any thoughts you would like to leave us with?
HL (01:15:10):
I would like to invite anybody who would like to, to put in a proposal for Teardown. Or just come along and hang out with us, that would be dope. Or if you are not local, I would definitely encourage you to think about starting up a Hardware Happy Hour. If you do not feel like there are a lot of people in your location that you can talk nerdy with.
EW (01:15:36):
Our guest has been Helen Leigh, Head of Community at Crowd Supply.
CW (01:15:39):
Thanks Helen.
HL (01:15:41):
You are so welcome. Thank you for having me.
EW (01:15:43):
Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you to our Patreon listener Slack group for questions. And to Memfault for their support. And of course, thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show@embedded.fm or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.
(01:16:00):
And now quote to leave you with, from Charles Schultz. "All his life he tried to be a good person. Many times, however, he failed. For after all, he was only human. He was not a dog."