409: A Better World
Transcript from 409: A Better World with Dr. Shirley Davis, Elecia White, and Christopher White.
EW (00:06):
Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, alongside Christopher White. This is not going to be our normal, somewhat technical show, but it's probably more important. We're going to talk to Dr. Shirley Davis, author of "Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Dummies."
CW (00:25):
Hi, Dr. Davis. Welcome.
SD (00:28):
It's my pleasure to be here. How are you?
EW (00:31):
Just fine. Could you tell us about yourself as though we were going to see you keynote speak at a conference?
SD (00:42):
Wonderful. Sure. Well, I am a 30-year corporate executive. I've worked in a number of different industries and sectors, everything from utilities and the manufacturing industry to banking and financial services.
SD (00:56):
I've worked in nonprofit as well as worked for some of the largest global organizations in the world, Fortune 50 and Fortune 100 companies. And I've been in human resources in all of those roles in various areas. So I've worked in employee relations. I led recruiting for 10 years.
SD (01:13):
I headed up leadership development and training, employee relations, and total compensation. And then I was a chief diversity officer for three of those major organizations. And so that's a little bit about my professional background. I am also a PhD in business and organizational leadership.
SD (01:31):
And I also have a undergraduate degree, one in adult education and the other one is in adult education and human resources. And so that's a little bit about my educational background. And then I say, thirdly, personally, I am a mom. I am a movie buff. I live in the Tampa Bay area, and I enjoy traveling around the world.
EW (01:55):
Okay. We're just here to talk about your travels. Where was your favorite location?
SD (02:02):
Actually, it's been in Dubai and also in the Dominican Republic.
EW (02:07):
Those are pretty different.
SD (02:11):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've traveled 36 countries.
CW (02:14):
Wow.
SD (02:15):
And what I loved about being in Dubai was just again, learning about the culture, but actually everything there was just big. It was huge, a great investment into their structures, into their architecture. And it just to me was just one of the most beautiful places.
SD (02:32):
And yet...even though it was around the world, it felt like I was in a very industrialized country. And so it was a lot to see, a lot to do there, and a lot to learn. So that was why I enjoyed that.
SD (02:44):
And then on the opposite end, I love the Caribbean. I love the ocean. And...when I had a chance to go to those kinds of countries, I love, love, love being by the water.
EW (02:57):
That isn't really what we're here to talk to you about.
CW (03:00):
But wait, now I have lots of questions.
EW (03:01):
I know. Me too.
SD (03:03):
Well. It's a lot of diversity, right? And I love, love, love that. And I know we are going to hit on that, but that's one of the things that's helped me to grow as a professional, even in diversity, equity, and inclusion, is learning about different cultures, and countries, and their norms around the world.
EW (03:18):
What it caused you to write "DEI for Dummies?"
SD (03:24):
Actually, I was asked. I was asked by the Wiley & Sons publishing company. And as you know, they've got nearly 3000 books for dummies. That's their franchise. And they've been around for nearly 30 years.
SD (03:36):
And this has just been how they have helped people to learn easy, to learn things that they don't know, and just get some quick practical tools.
SD (03:44):
So they did some due diligence, did a little bit...well, a lot of background, on my experiences as a HR professional and as someone who has done the work, rolled up their sleeves and done the work, in implementing DE and I in global organizations and working with leaders. And they asked me to do that.
SD (04:02):
And I was so honored because of the fact that yes, we're in a very polarized environment now. So many companies are focusing back on getting great talent. The demographics are changing in our marketplaces, and in our communities, and certainly in our workforce.
SD (04:17):
And we have to ready our leaders, and we have to be ready for doing that. So that was the impetus behind the book. And I was honored that they asked me to share my 30-plus years and to pin it in a book where you could provide these practical strategies and tips.
EW (04:34):
When I heard some IT professionals complain about how the "For Dummies" books were very good, but they couldn't give them to people, because you can't tell somebody they're a dummy -
CW (04:46):
I tell people they're dummies all the time. What are you talking about?
EW (04:49):
Was having the "for dummies" part of the book a plus or a minus for you?
SD (04:56):
I had to give some thought to that when they asked me, because being in the work that I'm in, I know language and words matter. But what I had to do was consider the source. So I looked up the "Dummies" franchise. Look, I own a number of books myself, but what it really is, I love the fact that they have made learning easy.
SD (05:14):
And it really is not about you calling someone a dummy. It has nothing to do with the area of disabilities or people having a lack of cognitive ability. This is all about us needing to learn more.
SD (05:27):
And a lot of times it's where we self-identify, "Oh, I'm a dummy in that. Oh, I just really don't understand that." So we've got "Cooking for Dummies." There's "Science for Dummies," right? It's for those of us who just want to know more in a very practical, quick way.
EW (05:40):
The book "The Mythical Man-Month" is pretty popular with our industry. And it sometimes ends up being placed on manager's chairs, sometimes with multiple copies if you're trying to make a point about mythical man-months. Are you hoping your book will end up on the chairs of people who need it?
SD (06:01):
Absolutely. The book was written not for people like me, who have been diversity officers, not just us alone, because we understand that we've been doing the work. We know how important it is. We know it's a key leadership competency that everyone should have.
SD (06:17):
It's a responsibility that I think all workers should recognize that we have to adopt, and to grow, and to foster, because we all have a role to play in working more effectively across differences. And we can all learn to be more accepting of differences, and learn about different cultures, and broaden our own perspective.
SD (06:37):
So when John Wiley & Sons asked me to write this book, it was specifically targeted to middle-level managers and above all the way to the E-suite, the C-suite, and to the board level.
SD (06:49):
But I'm thrilled to say that it's not only helping those kinds of leaders, but it's also helping those in HR, and those who are in offices of diversity, equity, and inclusion, who are driving this work, and they want to go deeper and broader, and they want to do more just beyond recruitment or just beyond a training program.
SD (07:07):
This book is designed to help them integrate this into their organization strategy and the ways that they show up and demonstrate their values every day.
EW (07:18):
You did have a section on values, and mission statements, and all of those things that as an engineer, I'm just like, "Those are just words. Talky-talk."...Does anybody actually know their company's mission statement? Does it actually affect us?
CW (07:35):
I knew some of them. Back in the 90s, I had it on a little card on the back of my ID. I had to be able to present that. It was long, very small type.
EW (07:43):
Yeah. They're long. They're very small. They talk about blah, blah, blah.
SD (07:48):
Yeah. It's interesting, because some do, and they do a really good job of living their values and ensuring that they are socialized across the organization.
SD (07:58):
They embed them into performance expectations, into leadership competencies. And they embed it into their training and certainly into their onboarding and orientation programs.
SD (08:08):
I am seeing companies now even revisit their values, and looking at their mission and vision statement to ensure that they're more inclusive and more reflective of a more diverse workforce, and communities, and clients, and customers that they serve.
SD (08:23):
So it's good to see that they're putting a focus back on it, and I'm working with a number of companies now to help them to make their value statements much more succinct and certainly much more inclusive.
EW (08:35):
In your book, you talked about the link between diversity and innovation. Could you tell us about that?
SD (08:43):
Oh, it's a definite direct link.
SD (08:45):
Not only because I've seen it play out in organizations to where when you bring great thought leadership, when you bring different ideas and perspectives, people with different backgrounds and experiences, and people who have different educational levels, but also different thinking styles and personality styles, when you bring all of that experience together, it really does contribute to you being able to think differently.
SD (09:09):
To create differently, to be able to provide to a much broader and more diverse customer, and client, and member, and donor, whoever you serve. And I found it to really show that at the bottom line, you outperform your competitors, who may not bring as much of that diversity to the table.
SD (09:27):
So it helps you to innovate, meaning thinking of new and different ways of doing things, or even being able to meet the needs and being able to better relate to the customers that are so diverse and have so many different needs. So it definitely has a contribution to it.
SD (09:42):
And the other thing I'll say, and I wrote that in the book as well, there's a number of great studies, and longitudinal studies, done by some of the world's most reputable consulting firms.
SD (09:52):
And they have looked at how does diversity and inclusion contribute to a company's bottom line that they can show a return on sales, and a return on equity, and a return on investment.
SD (10:04):
And companies that have more gender and ethnic diversity in their senior leadership ranks, and even in their eSuite, have outperformed those companies that don't have as much of that diversity. So there's data and research for it, but there's certainly very practical ways that we've seen it play out in the organization.
CW (10:22):
I want to take a quick step back, because I think people listening to this have probably heard the terms, diversity, inclusivity, and equity.
CW (10:30):
But I think for people who aren't reading about it a lot, or thinking about it a lot, they kind of might be a little mushy and might have some overlap. Can we define those in a way that takes some of that away?
SD (10:42):
Yeah. Diversity is about all of us. Diversity is our humanity. Diversity is a collective mixture of all the things that make us unique and different, but also that make us similar. So it can be our backgrounds, our perspectives, our values, our preferences, our experiences, our beliefs, right? All of those things make us diverse.
SD (11:05):
So in its general broadest sense, every one of us are diverse. Diversity just is. But when you think about then the "E", the "E" is where I think a lot of people get tripped up, and they're not sure if the "E" is about equality, or is the "E" about equity.
SD (11:20):
And I know that they sound very similar, and they sometimes have been used synchronously, but they're cousins, as I say, they're like cousins, not siblings. But at the end of the day, equity is really about fairness. It's about how do we treat people.
SD (11:37):
It's how do we ensure that there's a level playing field and ensuring that we're offering people opportunities to succeed, to contribute, to have access to, and to be able to be heard, and to feel valued, and respected in the organization.
SD (11:52):
Equality is really just about treating people the same and assuming that they need the same resources, the same support, and that we give everybody the same type of treatment. And that's not the case. Because of our uniqueness, our diversity, we do need to make sure that we're being much more equitable.
SD (12:08):
I think when we talk about equality, it's about making sure that we all l have equal rights under our laws. But I think when we're talking about equity, it is making sure that we give people the right resources, and the level playing field, and the opportunity to be able to be set up for success.
SD (12:26):
And in that third part of this equation, the "D," the "E," and the "I," you can have diversity and not have inclusion. Diversity just is. It's about the human talent that makes us all different and unique. But inclusion is about the work environment, the culture, the atmosphere that we have to work in, right?
SD (12:44):
How does the employee experience the culture and the workplace? Is it a place where I feel valued, respected, heard, leveraged? Is it a place where I feel that sense of belonging and a place where I can truly succeed and thrive? Does that make sense?
CW (12:59):
Yes. Thank you.
EW (13:00):
Diversity makes total sense for me. It engenders creativity and innovation. Inclusivity is necessary to keep diversity.
SD (13:09):
Yes.
EW (13:09):
Folks who are wholly accustomed to being put down, well, the group or the company, they have to reach out to make those people feel welcome. And business as normal may feel like being shut out. And then they leave, and then you lose your diversity.
EW (13:22):
Equity though. I have such a hard time with that. It seems like it requires a judgment of who deserves or requires special treatment.
SD (13:31):
It doesn't require judgment, but what it does require is a level of learning, and understanding, and an open mind to just be able to ask the question, or to be open enough to listen and understand that people do have different needs. So let's take, for example, you have two women who are working alongside of each other.
SD (13:48):
If you assume that both of those women have the exact same needs, you may miss out on the fact that maybe one woman is single, and another woman may be a mom and have children.
SD (13:58):
And so if you're going to treat both of them the exact same way, you may miss out on the opportunity to then know that one may need more flexibility than the other for particular reasons. If the child gets sick and they need to work from home, being able to make that level of accommodation.
SD (14:13):
Or if you have a woman and a male that are doing the exact same job, the equity piece is about making sure that the woman is not getting paid less because there's a bias there that the man needs to get paid more, because he's typically the breadwinner, he's the head of the household, and not assuming that.
SD (14:30):
The woman who's doing the exact same job really deserves to get paid for what she's doing. So that's a bit about what that is. It's thinking about the fact that you have so many different needs and expectations, because every single person is unique.
SD (14:45):
And as a leader, we should all be getting to know our workers, and what motivates them, and incents them, and what needs they have, and what different development skill sets that they have as well. It's like what, situational leadership, right?
SD (14:58):
We talk a lot about Ken Blanchard's model of situational leadership, and people are at different development levels, but people are also coming to work with various aspects of diversity. And we have to tap into that.
EW (15:11):
Your equity examples didn't quite work for me, because you gave the example of a man who might be the breadwinner for a family versus a woman who should be paid the same to do the same work. But then there's also the accommodations for people who have children...Shouldn't everyone get that same flexibility?
SD (15:37):
Absolutely. Absolutely. My point being, is that you can't necessarily say that because you've got a male and a woman, and you decide that the man needs to get paid more, but the woman doesn't need to get paid as much, why? Just simply because she's a woman?
SD (15:52):
That should not be the consideration. She should be paid for the work that she's doing as well.
SD (15:57):
But the other reality, too, is we want to make sure that everybody gets what they need, but some people may not want the same type of flexibility that a single mom or a mother wants, or even a dad wants, than someone who may be younger generation, not married at all, doesn't have any children at all, and wants something different.
SD (16:16):
So...my point being, is don't assume that you have to give everyone the same thing. But make sure you have access to those opportunities so that people can utilize those and access those as they need them.
EW (16:30):
One of the forms of equity that really does makes sense to me are things like curb cuts and gender neutral parent leave, because of course, and curb cuts were such a divisive thing for getting disabled folks to be able to use sidewalks.
EW (16:52):
And then suddenly everybody uses them, because they're really darn convenient. What kinds of equity makes it better for everyone? You mentioned flexibility. Are there other things?
SD (17:03):
Oh, absolutely. When we talk about equity, it's not just in flexibility. You heard me mention it also in pay. Equity is also about promotions. It's about who do we develop and who gets mentored, who gets coaching, who gets access to some of the information that may not be shared in an employee handbook, right?
SD (17:21):
Equity is also about how do we ensure that people have the same opportunities to contribute, to share their voices, to be heard. So that's what we talk about it in its broadest sense. So when you look at it at the employee life cycle, it should be all those things.
SD (17:34):
But then, too, as we think about it externally, I work with clients now where they're looking at equity and making sure that people can access, even like you were just talking about, whether it's shopping malls, or whether it's the movie theater.
SD (17:46):
And some of that's accessibility as well, too, but also ensuring that everyone has an equal opportunity to contribute. But again, making those making those accessibilities and those opportunities available for all, and just in different ways.
EW (18:04):
Going back to diversity and diversity of thought, that's something we talked about on the show recently as maybe not the right phrase to use, because it implies that you don't need different bodies and experiences in order to get diversity of thought. You just need people who think differently. Can you explain the myth of diversity of thought?
SD (18:29):
I've heard that at some point.
SD (18:32):
But I think for me, the way we look at it and the way we frame and educate around diversity of thought is just recognizing that with people's different experiences and different exposures in their different backgrounds, that it brings with you a different lens in which you see the world and how you process information.
SD (18:50):
And it also to allows you to be able to share things that maybe not everybody else shares or sees it a certain way. So when you bring that and leverage that power of diversity of thought is where you actually are able to then maybe take parts and pieces. It's like the total is better than its individual parts.
SD (19:09):
You're look at looking at how everyone sees the world in a very different way, but then when you come to solve for problems, or coming up with ideas and new ways to service your customers, or to create new things, it allows you to have a much broader perspective instead of just the thoughts and input of just a few who may think alike.
EW (19:31):
There are a few things about diversity that I have seen, but there are many things that, I'm a white woman, one of the easier levels on this game of life. But still I get so tired of hearing about things like, "We can't find diverse candidates to hire for STEM positions."
SD (19:53):
Yeah.
EW (19:53):
"We'll have to lower our standards." You had some great suggestions about going to where the diversity is, to post jobs, instead of using the same database of New England professionals you've used forever.
SD (20:09):
Yep.
EW (20:10):
Could you talk about how I can get people to stop saying I can't find diverse candidates to hire?
SD (20:19):
Yeah. Remember, I said I ran recruiting for 10 years. And part of that was also leading diversity recruiting and recognizing the fact that there is a lot of great talent that's out there.
SD (20:29):
When we look at the database, and the population changes, and we at how the demographics are continuing to shift, yes, there is a lot more diverse talent. And look, diversity is broad. It's not just women, it's not just a certain race or ethnicity. It's age. It's experience. It's background. It's all those other things that I talked about.
SD (20:49):
But when I used to source for recruiting, and I still teach a lot of my clients the same thing as well, first of all, you do have to cast a broader net.
SD (20:57):
Look at where you're going to find the jobs, not only at organizations, and colleges, and universities, but also make sure, too, that when you are doing that, that you're not only going to just to certain colleges where your executives graduated from.
SD (21:10):
When I worked in those companies where they say, "We want to go back to the Harvard, the MITs, the Columbias, the Stanfords, and all these Ivy League schools," but they did not have a high population of diverse students and minority students.
SD (21:21):
And so we talked to them about going to bigger, broader schools that have a larger database of students and reaching out to them, reaching out to the fraternities and sororities, reaching out to other minority organizations where many of our diverse candidates populate to. Because they don't feel included.
SD (21:40):
They don't feel a part of certain organizations or certain industries and sectors. And so...there is a minority organization for every single sector and career path out there, because of people not feeling that sense of belonging.
SD (21:54):
Some of the other things that I tell them to do, too, is start to go to some of the conferences, and go to some of the events, and be in the communities where some of the conversations are happening and where diverse talent is.
SD (22:06):
When I was recruiting, I would go to the National Association of Black Engineers. I would go to the Hispanic Society of Professional Engineers, right?...And then there's WITI, right? Women in Technology International. There's the Society for Women Engineers.
SD (22:22):
So there's something out there for all these different career paths. Go to those. Sponsor those. Be a part of those. Build relationships and know that that's how a lot of times you'll get your talent. And yes, they are on social media.
SD (22:35):
They're on various types of job boards, whether it's Indeed, Glassdoor, LinkedIn, Monster, ZipRecruiter. They're out there, but you have to build a relationship, and you have to go to where they are. Sometimes that even means being more willing to have scholarships, and sponsorships, and internships inside of your organizations as well.
SD (22:53):
And then the last thing I'll say, another option is, when you are looking for great talent, and you're looking at it at a certain level, particularly director and above, go to search firms.
SD (23:03):
Use some of the staffing agencies as well, and be very specific about the fact that you want to attract a more diverse slate of candidates, and you put that requirement on them. And use minority staffing agencies as well. There's a lot of ways out there that you can get it.
SD (23:19):
So I totally reject the notion of saying first, "We don't find them. They're not out there." And secondly, to assume that every time we mention diverse recruiting or hiring, that it means that we're having to lower our standards, only when we talk about that from a diversity perspective.
SD (23:34):
There's some very bright, talented, high-performing well-educated, diverse, talent of people out there. And we have to minimize that bias or eliminate it altogether and accept the fact that talent comes in all shapes, sizes, colors, backgrounds, ages, stages, sexual identities, and the like.
EW (23:55):
This topic makes me frustrated. And I think it may make you frustrated a bit too.
SD (23:59):
Did you hear a little bit of that?
EW (24:00):
How much anger is good here?
SD (24:04):
...I am a big believer that you really need to not focus on so much about what makes you angry, unless that's what you use to propel you to do some things that are very positive, right?
SD (24:14):
The work that I'm doing is because I'm angry and hurt at the ways that I see leaders treating other people who are highly-qualified, but they minimize and trivialize their qualifications and educations, and try to almost in a way, dumb it down so to speak. That's what I'm using, right?
SD (24:31):
We talked about the word "dummies," and this I'm meaning in a particular way, is that we try to make them feel like they're not worthy. They're not good enough. They're not smart enough. And that is an atrocity.
SD (24:43):
The other thing I see too, that makes me angry, is when you know that there's a compelling business case out there.
SD (24:49):
When people are working hard, they're trying to learn, what does it mean to truly work for companies that are asking you to bring your full self to work, to say they're committed to DE and I, and you come to work for that company, and it really is just wallpaper. And it's really just been a promo gig.
SD (25:07):
It's been a marketing ploy, but they're not necessarily experiencing that level of inclusion internally. So yeah, that's what makes me angry and upset. And then it also makes me angry when I see leaders who know that this should be a requirement, responsibility, and a competency that they have as leaders. And they're not walking the talk.
EW (25:27):
I have a question from a listener that I think falls under inclusion. Bailey asked what to do about the benevolent-isms. "Is there a good way to tell somebody who is sincerely trying to be nice that they're actually not?"
EW (25:41):
And the tiny example given was the, "Good morning, gentleman," awkward pause, "and lady." How do you tell people not to do that, to just go on, or even better say, "Good morning, minions?"
SD (25:58):
It does come through training, development, education, accountability. And it comes through setting the examples, and for us to be able to model some of those behaviors.
SD (26:09):
Look, at the end of the day, it also comes down to having the kind of organizational culture where people have trust and people have psychological safety.
SD (26:17):
And they feel like there is a space and a place where they can bring those kinds of things up, and say, "When you say this, or when you refer to us as this, here is how it makes me feel. Here is how it lands with me. Here is the connotation that is attached to that."
SD (26:35):
"And here's how I would prefer to be referred to. Here's how I prefer to be acknowledged." When we can allow ourselves to have those conversations and it not turn into a negative debate or not turn into a major conflict, that's where I think we can get better at this.
SD (26:51):
So we are learning. We're learning now that we've got to have a better way of communicating and talking about these tough topics, and we've got to have a better way and more open minds of learning that our language does matter, yes. And that we have to listen and learn the context of what people are saying and what they're saying.
SD (27:09):
But here's the other bottom line. We also have to assume positive intent while we're all on our journey. None of us has the corner on the market, and none of us can say that we know everything there is to know about all cultures and about all backgrounds, and histories, and languages, and that kind of thing.
SD (27:24):
So we're all still learning. I'm learning. I've been in this work for 30 years and I'm still guilty of my biases. And sometimes I'll say things that I didn't know...had a negative connotation, but I'm willing to acknowledge it, apologize for it, and become better. I think we all have to do that.
CW (27:42):
There's two things from my experiences that I'd like to bring up and have you kind of explore a little bit. Because I've worked at a bunch of companies, and they've been different sorts of levels of diverse. But what seems to be the case a lot of times, especially for larger companies, is there's a certain inertia.
CW (28:06):
Once you've hired a great deal of people, and the managers are there, and they hire people they know, and those people hire people they know, and they're like them, you end up with a certain, perhaps not as diverse cross section.
CW (28:22):
How can companies that have that inertia that now have a very non-diverse workforce kind of shift over and improve that? It seems like a very difficult problem. And I've seen efforts, great efforts, within some of those companies to do that that end up failing.
SD (28:42):
That's a great question. And it's an unfortunate reality companies are definitely at that place of inertia or complacency, and then somewhat even stuck. So a couple of things have to happen.
SD (28:53):
I think you have to recognize that it's not a sustainable strategy to continue to have a workforce that all look alike, pretty much think alike, came from the same universities, lived in the same community and there's just a lot of groupthink. That doesn't help you be as innovative as you can be.
SD (29:10):
It doesn't help you best relate to your clients and customers and understand their needs. And it certainly is not something that's sustainable, that's going to attract the new talent that's coming into the workforce today and in the future. We've got five generations right there in the workplace.
SD (29:25):
50% of our population of workers are mostly millennials and Gen Zs. And yes, we've still got the other population of workers as well.
SD (29:34):
But what we do know from studies, and studies, and studies, and I know this from doing so many organizational audits with our clients, is that top talent cares now, 80% of workers in a recent study that was done by monster.com and CNBC said that they want to work for a company that cares about diversity and inclusion.
SD (29:55):
And they want to work at a company where there's commitment there. So what I say to you is that there may be the inertia today, but it's not a sustainable long-term business strategy. Companies are going to have to look at themselves, and they're going to have to look at the market.
SD (30:08):
They're going to have to look at the population, and look at how diverse the communities that they serve are, and they need to be reflective of it.
SD (30:15):
What I'm also seeing is what pushes them is, when they start to have other clients do business with them, or they have customers who do business with them that push them to say, "You need to focus more on diversity and inclusion," or when they start to miss out on great talent.
SD (30:31):
Because now if you're recruiting in today's workforce, the talent is changing. And it's definitely much more diverse. And if they're looking inside of your company and looking at the people who work there and they don't see who look like them, they're not going to want to stay or even come.
SD (30:45):
Because they're not going to be confident that they'll feel like they have equity, or that they have a great sense of belonging, or even a chance to succeed, those areas.
SD (30:54):
And then the last thing I'll say about those companies that are in inertia is, do some benchmarking,...look at what are some of the competition out there and what they're doing as well. And you'll find that the most admired companies, the great places to work, the employees of choice, are those that have diversity at their forefront.
SD (31:14):
And certainly representation is a part of their strategy, both at the middle and above level, but also making sure that there's equity and inclusion in the organization.
CW (31:25):
And it's not just the organization as a whole...I've also been in places where yes, on the face of it's a very diverse organization. There's a lot of women working there. There's a lot of people of color working there, but the engineering organization is a hundred white people.
CW (31:39):
And to the outside world who maybe doesn't understand the internal structure, "Oh, okay. They're doing well." But to the engineering organization, it feels very like, "Oh, this is another one of those not very diverse places."
CW (31:53):
And I think that's a little tricky, because at the highest level of a company, they might feel like, "Yes, we're doing everything right," but it's clumped.
SD (32:03):
Yeah. And that's why you can't work in a bubble. A lot of times you can't see the picture when you're in the frame. And so you may think you're doing wonderful. You may be innovative, but again, it's not a long-term sustainable strategy.
SD (32:14):
Because at some point you're going to have to recruit more talent, and that talent's going to continue to look more diverse every year.
SD (32:21):
And I think that it's important in our HR roles and in our roles as chief diversity officers, and I just think in roles of leaders in general, that we keep the eye on the ball and recognize that. I mean, somebody's got to be looking at that to say, "We're not as diverse..."
SD (32:35):
If you're looking at workforce trends and you're keeping up with where the focus is and what are some of the best practices of companies that really, really do well, and that out-innovate others, diversity is going to be one of those key ingredients to helping them stay competitive.
SD (32:50):
So if you want to do that, you can't be comfortable by having an entire engineering team that all look alike, and there's not much you effort to try to change that.
SD (33:00):
Whether it's internally, building bench strength, and developing and growing your talent, or if it's externally and ensuring that you're branding, you're marketing, you're recruiting, your development efforts are out there helping to ensure that you can attract more diverse talent.
EW (33:17):
Sometimes it's easier to have a team that looks like me, that thinks like me, that I went to college with, or who I know and understand. I know diversity is important, but it's so much harder to explain everything.
SD (33:38):
Yeah. I get that, that it's more comfortable, and it's easy for us to be around people who are a lot like us. But it's also because we haven't had the experience of broadening our network and extending and expanding our worldview.
SD (33:56):
What I have found was, yes, it was easy when I was around people who looked like me, thought like me, very easy. We could come to consensus really easily. It's like, "Okay. Yeah, you get me. I get you." But where we have to also recognize is that we may be missing out on a much broader and bigger picture that we don't see.
SD (34:14):
Remember I just said, we can't see the picture when you're in the frame yourself. When I started traveling, and going to other countries, and traveling even around the U.S., right, I live in the U.S., and I have traveled to 48 states in the U.S. I've got two more to go.
SD (34:27):
But what I've learned in traveling around those states and meeting different people who didn't look like me, didn't think like me, I was enriched. I was enlightened, and I was inspired.
SD (34:36):
And I think that's the power of diversity is, yes, it may not be comfortable at first, but it's not about comfort level more than it is about helping us all to learn more, to be better, to be able to better relate to others and to be able to serve, to serve others that are not like us as well. That's what our role is as leaders is to serve.
SD (34:57):
And that doesn't make it easy. No. But it is about something that I think is...possible. It's necessary. And it's very, very beneficial.
EW (35:08):
I've been the only woman at several 50+ startups and often the only woman in an engineering team. And I have the incredible privilege of not usually needing a particular job. I can always take my ball and go home. How important is it that I stay and fight the good fight? Do I have to?
SD (35:29):
Yeah, I have been there too. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I've been the only one, a lot of times, whether it was the only woman, the only person of color, and sometimes just the only one that had my other attributes. And so I've had to make the choice, and I think that's personal.
SD (35:44):
And I say, it depends on who the person is. Because for me, I see a bigger, greater picture. And I realize that for me, that I've gone through a lot of things in my career and in my life.
SD (35:55):
And I've learned a lot, and a stage and age now of my maturity in life that I am willing to give back. I am willing to fight so that the next generation, my daughter, my grandchildren, that they will have a more inclusive world to inherit. So I look at it as legacy building.
SD (36:13):
I look at it also as bridge building, and I look at it as an opportunity for me to truly have an impact where I am to the extent that I can. And I have to also recognize that sometimes the fight isn't worth it, or the hill isn't worth dying on.
SD (36:28):
And I'll move to where there is at least a greater level of acceptance and opportunity for me to make an impact.
SD (36:34):
If people aren't willing at all, and they have no interest in learning how to work more effectively across differences, and to be more inclusive, and to just be more decent and respectful, I don't have time for those kinds of people.
SD (36:46):
But I will stay and fight the good fight when I know that there are some that really do see the importance of it.
CW (36:53):
Speaking of that experience of being the only person like you on a team, I have rarely had to experience that, except for once. Once I was on a team of about 30 people and I was the only white guy. And that was such a revelatory experience for me, because I understood at that point, this is very uncomfortable.
CW (37:15):
And everybody who's not like me experiences this all the time. And that's a rare thing for white male engineers to get to experience. And I think that's one of the hard things is, because you tend to isolate on your own experiences and think everyone else's are the same as yours.
SD (37:34):
Yeah.
CW (37:34):
"And what are you complaining about? We're all working together. This is fine. I know you're the only black woman on a 30 white male team."
SD (37:42):
Yeah.
CW (37:43):
"But we're all getting along here, so everything's fine." And that experience was just so eye-opening, because...I didn't feel necessarily included. Because they had their own way of speaking, because they were a team that was familiar with themselves.
CW (37:59):
And they even had a language that they used that I didn't know, so they could speak, and I couldn't understand what was happening. And so that was just really eye-opening.
CW (38:09):
And it was years ago, and...it put these kind of issues more in the forefront. And I wish other people could get that experience, but I know that's impossible.
SD (38:19):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I appreciate that. And I think there's an opportunity for more of those kinds of experiences, because what you are operating from that you just shared was a point of privilege, right? And so...you've always been the majority mostly where you've been.
SD (38:34):
So to have that experience, and to now get a grasp or a sense of what a person's reality is every day of their lives, simply because of their race, their gender, or who they love, or what they believe, or who they vote for, and that kind of thing, so you're exactly right.
SD (38:48):
And that's why we have the minority and what we have as majority, and we're trying to have that, that's what equity also gives us, is the opportunity to where yes, I can still enjoy pay, and promotions, and access at the table, and have mentoring, and coaching, and all of those things.
SD (39:06):
But...it's not just only because I'm a woman, but it's just because...the company set it up to where everyone should be able to enjoy those. We're all working. We're all part of the same company.
SD (39:19):
Hopefully we're all going the same direction and trying to accomplish the goals to be successful, but that's what we are lacking. And so I'm glad you had the experience, but too many more don't have the experience.
SD (39:30):
And they see us on the other side whining and griping about not having opportunities, and not having this, and not having that. The system hasn't been set up to always allow for that.
SD (39:42):
And so we want to expose them to more of these kinds of real-life, systemic and institutional organizational barriers, and obstacles, and biases that can hold certain people down, certain groups down, simply because of something a lot of times they can't control.
EW (40:00):
Do I have to feel guilty for having so much privilege?
SD (40:04):
No...Obviously look, I'm a black woman, and I have privilege too. I have a lot of privilege, because I'm a middle-class woman. I'm a PhD, very highly-educated. I've been a corporate executive. I own my own home, right? Iv'e got a lot of other great benefits. So I have my own privilege as well too.
SD (40:21):
And I don't think you have to feel guilty for that, but you also have to be sensitive that other people who don't have that privilege should not be made to feel less than, and devalued, and trivialized.
SD (40:32):
And that we have, I think, a responsibility with our privilege to hopefully help to create opportunities for others who may not have that. But no, it's not about feeling guilty.
SD (40:42):
But it is about being awakened, and being accepting, and also being willing to learn how to leverage your privilege, and then how to create space for those who don't have it.
EW (40:54):
Am I a terrible person for having biases?
SD (40:59):
No, you're human. We all have biases. I think we are terrible people when we utilize our biases as weapons, and we even use our privilege as weapons. That's when I think we really have crossed the line, but we have to recognize all of us are human. All of us are hardwired for bias.
SD (41:18):
We need bias every day to help just be able to make quick snap decisions about safety, and health, and just being able to quickly engage as we need to.
SD (41:29):
But we also have to be sensitive of how our biases can inform and influence policies, and how we treat people, and how we make decisions, and who we hire, who we fire, who we invite to the table, who we don't, who we overlook, who we undervalue.
SD (41:44):
So yes, that's where we have to be more aware of that. But certainly recognizing that bias is a human trait, and we all have it.
EW (41:52):
One of the things in your book I especially liked was the table of biases. I don't think it was until chapter 15, but it listed things like performance bias, where normally you would accept somebody...You would accept what they say. You would accept their credentials.
EW (42:07):
But when they're part of a minority, sometimes you make them prove their credentials more than you might otherwise. Are there other common biases that particularly affect people of color?
SD (42:20):
Yeah. So you, you hit on one, right? The affinity bias is where we do tend to draw and prefer people who are a lot like us, who remind us of us, right? We love us. We think we're wonderful people, but the more you're not like me, the more oftentimes I other-ize you, and that can cause the us versus them.
SD (42:38):
So that's that sort of affinity bias, what we see a lot. The confirmation bias, I think you also tipped on that as well, is where we tend to favor data that supports our preexisting assumptions or assessments about other people already.
SD (42:53):
And then when it doesn't confirm it, a lot of times we'll dismiss that data then, because it doesn't line up or doesn't confirm what we thought was. For example, when I was competing in pageants, I was a Miss America United States in 2000, but to have that on my resume had a benefit, but it also had a disadvantage.
SD (43:11):
Because people have a bias about, a lot of times, beauty queens, and assuming that they're not necessarily really smart, and intelligent, and that they tend to be kind of airheaded. That's some of the biases that I've heard there. So I sometimes had to overcome their biases, even around the affinity and even confirmation, right?
SD (43:30):
It's like, "Oh, well, I thought, because I saw that you were Miss America that you were beautiful, but that you probably didn't have a lot going on substantively." And what can happen with that is then it's like, "Okay, I thought she was going to be really airheaded, but she's really, really smart."
SD (43:47):
But then you start to then utilize other things to try to confirm that. So that's the confirmation bias, but then I've also seen recency bias, and that's where someone does something really good.
SD (43:59):
You recall that, and then you utilize that to sort of make your assessment more so and more readily than...something that might have happened a long time ago.
SD (44:09):
And then there's also the, what I call, priming effect, which is you alter your reaction to something that's a current stimulus for you based on your exposure to previous stimulae.
SD (44:20):
And we have to be careful about that, because we don't necessarily want to assume that because one person says or does something, that we assume that everyone else does that same thing, too, from that particular group...There's a lot. You're right.
SD (44:33):
In the book, I must have hit on about 12 of some of the most common biases. But we all have them, and we have to be aware of how they play out every day, not only in our personal lives, but in our workplaces.
EW (44:44):
I liked the list. Because it let me go through and really realize where my worst biases are and how I should keep an eye on them, make sure that that doesn't control my actions. It's okay to have biases as long as they stay in your head.
SD (45:01):
Absolutely.
CW (45:03):
But also to kind of bring them to the forefront, because there's a lot of unconscious biases that we all have. And it's hard to just always be second guessing yourself, but also knowing what kind of the common biases are is helpful to say, "Oh,...is this affecting my decision making or is - ?"
SD (45:25):
Yeah. And it's one of the most common requests that we're getting in the training and education area arena of DE and I is, certainly helping more organizations understand that leaders do have, we all have biases. And it's really important more so for leaders because of the impact and the influence that they have. And so you're right.
SD (45:46):
More and more of them are doing that kind of implicit bias training so that it does raise that level of awareness and that we have to implement some of the strategies to interrupt that bias, to mitigate that so it doesn't have a negative effect in the ways that we treat people in the organization.
EW (46:05):
Quite a lot of your book was a guide to human resource departments in general. Was that intentional?
SD (46:12):
No, actually...as I said earlier, it was written for leaders, but let's recognize, too, that when we're talking about this work around DE and I, it's about a culture transformation. And it's also about helping us as individuals understand how do we treat each other and work together.
SD (46:28):
So the book is really about how do we handle talent. How do we lead talent? How do we work effectively and get the best work out of our talent? And that does tend to be in the human resources department. And yes, it tends to be in offices of diversity and inclusion.
SD (46:42):
But it was really written specifically to all leaders who have a responsibility to create the right policies, strategies, processes, and procedures in their organization. And it gives them a way for them to integrate that and embed that in everything that they do in their strategies.
SD (47:01):
But it also does give a roadmap for how can we make sure that our talent, all talent can thrive, all talent feels a sense of belonging, and all talent feels set up for success.
EW (47:14):
I don't know if you talked about this in your book, but are you familiar with the idea of generational curse?
SD (47:22):
From a spiritual standpoint, I am.
EW (47:25):
The way that black people in particular have been treated in the United States seems to fall under that. Now that I have put all these words in your mouth, can you explain all of that?
SD (47:41):
Well, you're right. I didn't talk about a generational curse in the book, but the way I understood generational curses is it's really about something like a habit, an idea, a thinking process, or behavior, even a practice, that's passed on from one generation to the next generation.
SD (47:58):
And I recognize that the way that we've experienced, even in our own country, inequities and injustices, that..., obviously this has been going on for over 400 years, and I do know that there's still some of that generational experience that they're having. There's what I call a generational impact that we're seeing as well too.
SD (48:22):
And here's the reality, is that yes, when you've had generations that experience such isms or phobias, right, whatever that might be, they then tend to pass it on to their children to help them understand the world that they're coming into, and what are some of the things that they need to do in order to be prepared, in order to overcompensate for it..., how to respond to it.
SD (48:45):
So I think generationally, because I know I'm raising my daughter now to help her understand that, yes, you need to be well-educated. You need to make sure that you have the right temperament. You need to make sure that you have all these skill sets, get a mentor, get a sponsor.
SD (49:00):
These are the things you're going to need to do inside your organization, because there are systems that are in place that have not yet been level set, and they're not equitable. And you're going to have to overcompensate just simply for being a black woman in America.
SD (49:16):
So yes, I still see some of that being passed over from generation to generation, but I'm hoping that that will get better. I hope that to the next generation, that there's more inclusion, that there's greater levels of regulations and policies in place that will help mitigate that.
SD (49:32):
And I hope mindsets and heartsets change so that we can begin to have a different generational shift in what's expected and in what the experience is.
EW (49:42):
I bring it up because it helps me relate to history, and what goes on now, and to the resentments people sometimes have when we talk about quotas or doing more in order to find diversity hires.
EW (49:56):
Yes, going out to SWE and the black engineering groups, it's more work, but you know what, we kind of need to do it. Because it hasn't been fair in the past so make up a little bit for how it's been in the past. Is that is a normal way of thinking, or am I just delusional as usual?
SD (50:21):
Actually I think what we have to do, and this is where I'm leading organizational leaders to this, and this is what we do even when we're looking at their data, their demographics, we're looking at their strategies, their policies.
SD (50:32):
And we're saying where have there been opportunities where you could have been more equitable, where you could have been more fair, been more respectful, been more inclusive? So I think it's important to look at that. Look at your current state.
SD (50:44):
That's exactly why we do employees surveys, and engagement surveys, and focus groups, is because we do want to know, "Where are we doing really well, but where do we have some gaps? Where do we have some misses and some opportunities that we need to fill?"
SD (50:58):
And when we do, even audits, right, you have to go in and look and see where are there some of these inequities and these areas where we really have to level set. And in some ways we may have to make up for it, right? So yeah, I worked with a CEO not too long ago, which was phenomenal.
SD (51:16):
He was like, "If you look over the last five years of our organization, we have not done a good job at all of bringing in more women and more people of color. And the world is changing. And we've got to do better. All of our hires at the director level and above have been mostly white people, and we've got to do better."
SD (51:32):
So he put out a target. Affirmative action, it wasn't necessarily the case more than it was a goal to say, "We need to just be more diverse and focus on the fact that there's talent out there that we haven't been tapping into."
SD (51:43):
And he put out..., I think, a bold commitment to hire, 50% of all of their new hires, in the next four to five years are going to be people of color and women.
SD (51:55):
And so I thought that was a very, very bold move, but it is looking at the realities of, we haven't done a good job in the past of recruiting and looking at talent in its broadest sense. And we need to change that.
CW (52:08):
Yeah. And I think that's true in a lot of different ways too. Why the argument, "Oh, I can't find people or there aren't - "
SD (52:17):
Yeah.
CW (52:17):
- people who are talented, who are diverse?" It never rings true for me, because sometimes those are the same hiring managers who are like, "Well, we only hire from Ivy League."
EW (52:28):
Yes.
CW (52:29):
Right. Right.
SD (52:30):
Right.
CW (52:30):
Okay. Well, fine. You're limiting yourself so much that clearly you don't even know how to go look for other people. And so -
SD (52:37):
Yeah.
CW (52:37):
- you wouldn't know that those people exist, because you're off here in this tiny corner that you think is where the smartest people in the world come from, and it's just not true.
SD (52:46):
Absolutely. And that's the bias as well too. And sometimes it can be coupled with bias, arrogance, and sometimes even prejudice.
SD (52:55):
And we have to be sensitive to the fact that when those comments are made, I usually will walk them down a list of things and ask them what have they been doing to get more access to more diverse talent.
SD (53:07):
And that gives me an opportunity to then help them see that there are some additional strategies that they've been missing and that they have been looking at things in a very narrowly focused way. And so I'm helping them to really solve for some of those things.
SD (53:21):
But I really find that they have to have more of an open mind and a willingness to do it. It's not about doing the things that are easy. It's not about doing the things that you've always done.
SD (53:28):
If you want to be more innovative, if you want to be more relevant, and if you want to be more successful in the future, it's about doing some of the things that you've not done before and doing them because they're the right thing to do, but doing them because they will also have a great impact.
SD (53:41):
And they really will have a real success story to tell whenever you've been able to say yes, we did find great talent here. Yes, we did find great talent there. Here's the reality, because if you're not doing it, your competitors are, others are doing it. And then you're going to be left with selecting talent that you was left over, not top talent.
SD (54:03):
Other companies who are really recognizing that they have to cast their net broader, they're going to be able to attract a much more viable candidate that will, again, be the kind of worker that will stay and do some great work.
EW (54:19):
If there was one section in your book that you hope that the post-it note is in when it's put on somebody's boss's desk, where do you want the post-it note? Where do you want the highlight to be when that book is put on someone in charge's desk?
SD (54:39):
Alright. So someone who is in charge, I really would love for it to be where they see the value and the impact of DE and I, and I want them to see it, that it is a skill and a competency that every leader needs. So I would want it to be in chapter three, which is really about cultivating skills and competencies for leading today's workers.
SD (55:02):
Because I want them to know that DE and I is about them too. It's not just about an HR person or a diversity officer leading this in the organization and taking the charge. This is about every leader seeing that this is their role, their responsibility.
SD (55:15):
And it is something that every one of them has to build a skill around. And it's something that they have to be a part of the journey to help drive this. So I would want them to be there. And then the second bullet point where I really would want them to focus on is, I love, love, love what they call the part of tens.
SD (55:34):
And they allowed me to give ten things for this, ten tips for that. And I would really love for them to go to part five in that book, in chapter 19, I talk about ten common myths about diversity and inclusion.
SD (55:50):
And I would love for them to find themselves in that particular chapter, answering some of those questions, because I think that would be some of the same myths that they have. And I went through that chapter and dispelled those myths.
EW (56:03):
And they were so common.
SD (56:05):
Common. Yes.
SD (56:06):
And if we can dispel some of those myths, if they could start there in those two chapters, doing the personal work, doing the personal assessment, and disbanding some of the lack of knowledge, and lack of experience around this work that we would see our DE and I efforts, matter of fact, we would see our workplaces become much more inclusive, high-performing.
SD (56:28):
And we would see places where employees would do their best work and want to stay, that's where I think we have to start, is with leaders. And that's what this book is for, to them.
EW (56:38):
I want to live in that world.
SD (56:40):
Yeah, me too. And now I'm trying to help create it, right?
EW (56:43):
Exactly. Dr. Davis, do you have any thoughts you'd like to leave us with?
SD (56:50):
Yes. I appreciate, first of all, that we're still having these conversations, and I want to leave your listeners with the realities that DE and I is about all of us. It's not just about women. It's not just about people of color. It's not just about LGBTQ people.
SD (57:05):
It's not just about people with disabilities. Diversity, equity and inclusion is about all of us, about all of us recognizing that we live in a world where there's so much valuable insight, information, perspectives, ideas, and things that we can learn from each other.
SD (57:21):
And by leveraging that diversity, it not only to make our workplaces much more inclusive and much more high-performing, but it also allows us to create a better world, a better world that all of us has an opportunity, and I say has a responsibility to leave better than when you found it.
SD (57:41):
So let DE and I be a part of what you do, a part of who you are, and a part of the ways that you contribute to our society being a better place.
EW (57:52):
Our guest has been Dr. Shirley Davis, author of "Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Dummies." She's also the CEO of SDS Global Enterprises.
CW (58:03):
Thanks, Dr. Davis.
SD (58:05):
It's been my pleasure. Thank you. And please stay in touch with me at drshirleydavis.com, and I'm on all of the social media sites. So LinkedIn is the best place to reach me, but I'd love for your audience to stay connected with me.
EW (58:18):
The links will be in the show notes. Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you to our Patreon listener Slack group for questions. And thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show@embedded.fm, or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.
EW (58:33):
And now a quote to leave you with, from U.S. Supreme Court Justice, Ketanji Brown Jackson. "Be open to new ideas and experiences, because you'll never know when' someone else will have an interesting thought or when a new door will open to take you on the journey of your dreams."