314: Why Are Wings Needed in Space?
Transcript from 314: Why Are Wings Needed in Space? with Mohit Boite, Elecia White, and Christopher White.
EW (00:00:06):
Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, I'm here with Christopher White. Our guest is Mohit Bhoite, and he is in studio. We are going to talk about flux, sculpture, and circuits, and this cute little LED light temperature thing that's sitting in front of me. I'm quite excited.
CW (00:00:32):
Hi, Mohit. Welcome.
MB (00:00:34):
Thank you for hosting me.
EW (00:00:36):
Could you tell us about yourself?
MB (00:00:38):
My name is Mohit. I am a senior hardware engineer at Particle, based out of San Francisco. So my day job is to build electronic circuits, flagship products for Particle. And in my free time, I like to build things. And one of the things that I like to build are free-form circuit sculptures that are primarily made out of passive electronic components and brass wire.
EW (00:01:00):
Why do you do this? I mean, you do electronics during the day, but you also do it after work?
MB (00:01:05):
Yes. And it's funny because my day job is literally designing circuit boards all day long. And then I come back home, and I still have this desire to be building things with my hands. And building could mean cooking, or it could mean soldering things together, or it could mean bending brass and making sculptures out of them.
MB (00:01:27):
And the reason why I do that is because it's a way for me to unwind from a day. It's very relaxing, almost therapeutic, to be building circuits, even if it's at the end of the day.
EW (00:01:38):
So during the day you build circuits with circuit boards, and at the end of the day you build circuits without circuit boards.
MB (00:01:42):
Precisely.
EW (00:01:46):
Alright. We have lightning round, where we'll ask you short questions.
MB (00:01:49):
Alright.
EW (00:01:49):
And we want short answers. And if we are behaving ourselves, we won't say, "Why," and "How," and, "Are you sure?" Chris, do you want to get started?
CW (00:01:57):
What's your favorite flux?
MB (00:01:59):
Favorite flux? It's a flux made by CircuitWorks, and it's a flux pen. So it's a water soluble flux. It's very easy to use and apply. If I remember correctly, the part number is CW8013, or maybe not. I'll have to look it up. But it's a cool little pen that dispenses flux on demand.
EW (00:02:22):
Your favorite gauge of wire?
MB (00:02:24):
18.
CW (00:02:25):
How much would it cost to commission the Millennium Falcon?
MB (00:02:28):
Too much.
EW (00:02:33):
Your favorite material of wire?
MB (00:02:36):
Material? I would still stick to brass.
CW (00:02:39):
Lead or lead-free?
MB (00:02:40):
Lead-free all the way.
EW (00:02:43):
Favorite pliers?
MB (00:02:44):
They are made by Xuron. I forget the part number. They're flat nose, needle nose pliers.
CW (00:02:53):
Favorite fictional robot?
MB (00:02:54):
Oh yeah. The robot from Short Circuit.
CW (00:02:59):
Oh, yeah. What was his name? Johnny 5.
MB (00:03:02):
Johnny 5. Yes, Johnny 5.
EW (00:03:04):
Do you have a tip everyone should know?
MB (00:03:06):
Clean your workspace with a lint roller. If you have a soldering mat that is made of silicone, lint rollers really help you clean that up.
CW (00:03:20):
I'm going to take that.
EW (00:03:21):
Yeah. Apparently we're going to go get lint rollers. Okay. So -
CW (00:03:28):
You win by the way.
EW (00:03:28):
You win.
MB (00:03:28):
Oh.
EW (00:03:28):
Yeah, yeah.
CW (00:03:28):
Congratulations.
EW (00:03:28):
Very good. You do circuits without circuit boards, which means you make sculptures? How did you get started doing this?
CW (00:03:42):
Describe for people who can't see anything -
MB (00:03:44):
Alright.
CW (00:03:45):
- what these look like.
MB (00:03:47):
So let's rewind the clock all the way back to 1998. I was a teenager.
EW (00:03:51):
That was a good year.
MB (00:03:52):
Yes, it was. I had recently been introduced to the internet. This was me growing up in the city of Mumbai in India. And my dad had access to internet from his office, because he used to work for the government.
MB (00:04:06):
And I had read an article in Reader's Digest, believe it or not, back in India about this person called Mark Tilden, who would make robots out of broken Walkman players, and CD players, and gadgets that were broken.
MB (00:04:23):
And that was perfect for me, because I did not have access to electronics or an electronics market, but I did have access to broken electronics, or I knew how to break electronics. And so -
EW (00:04:34):
Everybody knows how to break electronics.
MB (00:04:36):
Exactly. And so this was a match made in heaven, and I wanted to know more. And I don't even remember what search engine I used, probably Yahoo, and came upon this website called solarbotics.net. And it was just a forum of people talking about this concept of BEAM robotics.
MB (00:04:55):
And BEAM is an acronym for B-E-A-M, B is biology, E is electronics, A is aesthetics, and M is mechanics, and so this philosophy of building robots out of passive broken electronic components and putting them together so that they exhibit complex behaviors.
MB (00:05:12):
And one of the complex behaviors is you put a solar cell with two light sensors on it and two motors, and this now bug, so-called photovore, will chase the light, and feed off of the light, and run away from the dark. And so the idea is you build these things using just what they call dead bug soldering.
MB (00:05:38):
And the idea is instead of using a circuit board, you use wires or direct connection between two electronic components, not having the necessity to design a complicated and expensive circuit board. You just start connecting things together like Lego, but instead of plugging them in, you solder them together.
MB (00:05:55):
And that's how I started actually learning about electronics and how to free form solder. There's another word, free-form dead bug flywire, and just the method of connecting two things together without having to use a circuit board. Traditionally in electronics, you have flat circuit boards, either made of phenolic or fiberglass material.
MB (00:06:17):
And there are copper traces that run on the circuit board that connect two electronic components together with a copper trace. And the idea in free form is you get rid of the circuit board and just connect those two things together with wire, or copper, or brass.
MB (00:06:32):
As I found out later in my career, that also works. So BEAM was my foray into electronics. And then I took up engineering, and electronics, and telecommunications. Then I did a master's in robotics. I have always been a fan of robots in general.
MB (00:06:51):
I wanted to go to Japan to study robotics, but I ended up in the United States, which I think was better for me.
MB (00:06:58):
So I have been building these things, And there was one afternoon that I still distinctly remember walking into ACE Hardware, I don't remember what I was buying, but came across this whole section of extruded brass parts, extruded brass rods, tubes, C extrusions. And I was like, "Huh, I could actually use this in circuits."
MB (00:07:23):
I don't really know how and why, but it just clicked. And I bought some brass rods, took it home, and started playing with the idea of hooking up the Particle Photon, which is a Wi-Fi enabled dev board, to a seven segment display.
MB (00:07:40):
And I started using wires or making that on a PCB. I decided to start using brass as a structural element and also a connection element. I drew some sketches and put it together. And it was working in the first instance. And I posted a picture on Instagram, which was later picked up by Hackaday. And they wrote an article about it.
MB (00:08:02):
And people were like, "Oh, this is cool." And like most forums, people were encouraging. And they were also people noticing my cold solder joints.
EW (00:08:13):
If it works, they're not that cold.
MB (00:08:15):
Exactly. And so it went back into my drawer and then a couple of years later, I really wanted to get back into it. And I started sketching out these ideas in a log book that I have, and it's just getting bigger by the day, and just working with different shapes and forms, different devices, and not getting too purist as to not use circuit boards at all.
MB (00:08:43):
Circuit boards have their place. If you're working with tiny, tiny electronic components, if you want a tiny radio on it, you still need a circuit board. But the idea was not to just do away with circuit boards. It was trying to find a happy balance using brass as the interconnects, circuit boards as the main functional unit, and then displays.
MB (00:09:05):
And I was also inspired by a German artist. His name is Peter Vogel and he made beautiful, beautiful free-from sculptures primarily to make sound and music. And he was pretty prolific in the '80s and '90s.
MB (00:09:22):
And so that combined with my love for electronics and robots is where I stand today, making all kinds of circuit sculptures that tell you time, tell you temperature, draw with light, or just do nothing, and stand on your desk, and blink an LED.
EW (00:09:41):
There are so many things I want to ask. Let's go back to the BEAM part, because I was totally new to that. But it's a pretty big movement where, there's the whole BEAM part, which you said.
EW (00:09:56):
But there's also the tenets of that whole group, which is to use the lowest number of electronic elements to keep it simple, to recycle and reuse the technology scrap, and then to use solar power as much as possible.
MB (00:10:18):
True.
EW (00:10:20):
And you came across this pretty early, but it sounds like there were years where you didn't do the sculptures.
MB (00:10:28):
True.
EW (00:10:29):
Why?
MB (00:10:31):
Because I was, I would say, distracted by other things. So I would -
EW (00:10:36):
Robots?
MB (00:10:36):
Robots in particular. Yes. Yeah. So sculpture is just one of the things I like to do. And somehow I got traction on Instagram when I started posting these. But my history with electronics is not just about sculptures. I also have a ham radio license, and I used to like building radios.
MB (00:10:56):
And as a project for my undergrad, I made a small, 20-meter transceiver. I did not have a license to transmit, but I still built one. It worked. I was able to get broadcasting all the way from Russia into India.
MB (00:11:15):
It was pretty fascinating, just being able to just tune into radio frequencies that are omnipresent all around you at all times, just waiting to be heard. So ham radio was a fascinating aspect that I was also exploring in those years, robotics was another, just playing with electronics in general drawing.
MB (00:11:39):
I wanted to become an artist. If five-year-old Mohit was asked, "What would you want to do?" I was like, "I want to draw all day." So I feel like I have had these micro obsessions all throughout my life, be it electronics, robotics, BEAM, art world. And so, yeah, I've dabbled with a lot, but as far as sculptures go, they come and go.
MB (00:12:03):
And I think now they're here to stay, just because I have found traction, and I like building things. And this feels like a good combination of being able to have art meet engineering.
EW (00:12:19):
You mentioned that one of them was picked up on Hackaday and that there was a lot of encouragement. But there was a little bit of discouragement, and it went back in the drawer. There was a lot of encouragement. Why didn't you listen to that part?
MB (00:12:33):
I mean, humans are interesting in the way they would somehow completely tune out encouragement and just focus on criticism somehow. I don't know why and how, and you latch onto it.
EW (00:12:47):
Do you wish you could go back and tell yourself, "Look, stop that. It doesn't matter. So what if there are cold solder joints. Let's just make pretty things."
MB (00:12:56):
Totally. And I think I am also a huge critic of myself. So until I get everything perfectly right, I'm not ready to present to the world now. Because I feel like there are more eyes, more eyeballs on your work once you find traction. And it becomes even more difficult to be vulnerable to showcasing your work.
MB (00:13:20):
And I struggled with that in and out, but now I just build things because they make me happy, regardless of what people think or what they are.
EW (00:13:31):
That's a tough place to get to.
MB (00:13:33):
Yes. Extremely tough.
EW (00:13:34):
It's a tough place to stay too, but you fall out, get back on.
CW (00:13:38):
Yeah. I mean, if something takes off, you gain a certain level of popularity, and then you achieve enlightenment like you have now. And then suddenly something takes off even bigger, you probably reenter that state, right?
MB (00:13:51):
True. And I feel it's part of growing up. It comes to you. I don't think I was chasing this place where I just do things because I want to do things. It just so happened to me that I feel comfortable, and I don't know how and why that happened, but it just happened.
EW (00:14:11):
It's a good place to be. So how much of your sculptures are hardware versus software? We talked about making electronics without boards, but there are software elements, aren't there?
MB (00:14:22):
So yeah, I have sculptures that talk to the internet. I have sculptures that are made out of passive electronic components that just blink, so no programming involved. And I would say they're 50-50.
MB (00:14:35):
And so the ones that have a tiny microcontroller on it, I would say the programming is 50% of the sculpture. Because otherwise it's just a standing structure with nothing happening.
MB (00:14:47):
So the idea that you fetch time from the internet and display it, or fetch weather from the weather station and display it, or just measure the temperature in your room and then log it into a cloud database, so there are programming aspects. But what people see is just the physical manifestation of the code that you write in a way.
CW (00:15:15):
Do you start with a structure in mind, like, "Okay, I want to make this airplane-like thing or, or this bug-like thing," and then think, "Okay, what could that do," or does it go the other way, "Well, I want to make ... a weather monitor, and that should look like a little - "
EW (00:15:30):
Cloud.
CW (00:15:31):
- "cloud," or something. Yeah.
MB (00:15:32):
That's actually a good idea. Maybe I will.
MB (00:15:36):
I have gone back and forth, but I think it's the latter where what I try to do is constrain a sculpture to a theme. So I would say, "I want to build Star-Wars-inspired sculptures, spaceship-inspired sculptures," and then I will put myself to the constraint and just doodle.
MB (00:15:54):
And then, it's funny, because when I am doodling, I will have a box full of electronics sitting in front of me. And I will just put things together with my hands to see what fits and what doesn't, and then doodle the sketch and keep on doing that within the constraint of say, making a spaceship.
MB (00:16:13):
There's another series that I do called "handle with care." And I had these measuring cups, and they had wooden handles. And the measuring cups were losing their, I think, plastic coating. They were just bad measuring cups. And so I took off the wooden handle. I asked myself, "Can I build electronics at the end of this handle?"
MB (00:16:38):
And I started the series called "handle with care" where there's this free-from sculpture at the end of the handle. And what could you do if you were given a handle? So I made a tiny gaming console. You hold onto the stick with a joystick at the end, and there's a free-from LED matrix.
MB (00:16:56):
So it's like the old snake game that used to be on Nokia cellphones. Another sculpture I made was just a flashlight, but the flashlight could be programmed to have different patterns, different brightness. And I have more ideas, because I have six measuring handles, and I have done two.
MB (00:17:14):
And so just being able to constrain yourself to certain styles and themes helps me doodle and come up with ideas rather than just drawing sketches sort of thin air.
EW (00:17:30):
Yeah. The blank page is a scary place.
MB (00:17:33):
It is. And it's also interesting that I like doing just drawing, and technical drawings, and schematics. And it's nice to be able to start drawing faces and know I could actually put electronics inside of it. And it's like building toys.
CW (00:17:53):
And you don't use something like CAD to completely map out your 3D structure.
MB (00:17:57):
Not completely. Maybe sometimes to check out the proportions to see what works and what doesn't. If I'm using a complicated schematic, I will still use a schematic -
CW (00:18:06):
Right.
MB (00:18:06):
- capture software, usually EAGLE, EAGLE CAD, to draw the schematic and then use that as a template to make the sculpture.
EW (00:18:16):
Do you draw out the wires in EAGLE like you create them on your sculpture, or do you just have EAGLE show the nets, the connections?
MB (00:18:29):
Sometimes both. I have sculptures that literally look like they were circuit boards, but without the fiberglass board that holds it together. But as far as EAGLE goes, I use that to usually draw the schematic and then use that to make a PCB. But where you see the copper traces, they're all brass.
MB (00:18:55):
So yes, being able to use the PCB design tool to make sculptures is possible. But when you enter the realm of complicated three-dimensional structures, then I tend to use just pen and paper, or sometimes Fusion 360 to get the boxes and the angles right.
EW (00:19:13):
How many drawings would you do for something of the complexity of your TIE fighter alarm clock?
MB (00:19:22):
I would say that particular one, it's funny, because I drew so many sketches and none of the sketches look like the one that's sitting on our desk here, just because as you draw -
EW (00:19:32):
Oh, wait a minute. That's an X-wing.
MB (00:19:34):
Yes.
CW (00:19:34):
No, it's a TIE fighter.
MB (00:19:34):
No, it's not a TIE fighter. It's a TIE interceptor.
CW (00:19:37):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just been Star Wars -
EW (00:19:40):
But you have another one.
MB (00:19:41):
Yes.
EW (00:19:41):
Okay.
MB (00:19:42):
Yes.
EW (00:19:42):
Sorry, on your website I was looking at the other one.
MB (00:19:45):
Yes. Yes, that was a TIE fighter. And this is a TIE interceptor, the TIE fighter, unfortunately -
EW (00:19:51):
What's the difference between a TIE -
CW (00:19:53):
You see, one is a long-range, interception, interdiction, aircraft or spacecraft.
MB (00:20:02):
I have no idea. One, I think -
CW (00:20:04):
One looks cool and one looks less cool.
MB (00:20:08):
And I think the TIE fighter, the version that I built, was the one that was flown by Darth Vader versus the others.
CW (00:20:19):
Yeah. See, they had to make a different one for that movie so you knew which ship Darth Vader was in. So that's why they gave him the curved wings.
EW (00:20:25):
The little edges on the wing, yeah, -
CW (00:20:26):
Yeah, yeah.
EW (00:20:27):
- to look like his wings didn't fully expand.
CW (00:20:29):
Yeah.
EW (00:20:30):
This is so not what I intended.
CW (00:20:32):
Or I intended.
MB (00:20:37):
But that's the the product of constraining your things to a theme. And so this is the second in the series of the bedside clocks. The TIE fighter, on the other hand, sadly broke as we were moving boxes from Minneapolis to San Francisco recently.
CW (00:20:53):
But you're going to fix it, right?
MB (00:20:55):
Yeah, of course. And surprisingly, the air here in California, the salty air is a little bit more harsh on the brass than it was -
CW (00:21:04):
Oh.
MB (00:21:04):
- back in Minneapolis. So the brass does get tarnished fairly quickly here.
EW (00:21:11):
I mean, you could use that.
MB (00:21:13):
Yeah. Yeah. The patina does add character to the sculptures. Yes.
EW (00:21:20):
Okay. Sorry. My question was how many drawings do they get?
MB (00:21:22):
Yes, about a dozen drawings. And I had so many more plans as far as what the sculpture would do or look like. And then as you get closer to the day when you're actually putting things together, you start eliminating things that seem redundant, or too complicated, or aesthetically not pleasing.
MB (00:21:42):
And so usually my sculptures end up the filtered down version of what a doodle looks like. But I would say about a dozen different concepts to get to one.
EW (00:21:52):
And how many builds do you do? Is it just one?
MB (00:21:56):
Just one. Yeah.
EW (00:21:56):
Okay. So you're not making the same thing ten times and then junking nine of them.
MB (00:22:02):
No, I would not be a happy person if I were to do that.
CW (00:22:06):
But you achieve some pretty good precision. I'm looking at the TIE interceptor, and the angles are all consistent with all the wings. And that's all done by hand. So what's your process for repeatability with something so intricate and small like that?
EW (00:22:20):
Precise.
CW (00:22:21):
Yeah.
MB (00:22:21):
Yeah. It's actually a lot easier than it looks. As far as getting the precise angles, you take a printout of a true scale template. And then you use that as a reference as you're bending and cutting your brass. And then you match it until you get the angle right. So you go back and forth.
MB (00:22:39):
And brass is pretty forgiving when it comes to bending. If you do one bend, you will have to stick to that bend, but you have the flexibility of changing the angle without ruining the whole structure. And so you go back and forth, you stick the brass wire on the template and then use that as a fixture to solder things together.
MB (00:23:02):
So everything starts in a two-dimensional plane, and then you start putting those together to form a three-dimensional sculpture.
EW (00:23:12):
When you solder things together, how do you put them on the paper? Do you just tape them?
MB (00:23:22):
Yep.
EW (00:23:23):
Okay. And then when you solder one thing, how do you not unsolder the previous joint?
MB (00:23:29):
Yes. That can be tricky if two solder joints are very close to one another.
EW (00:23:33):
I mean, because the heat -
MB (00:23:34):
Yes.
EW (00:23:34):
- moves.
CW (00:23:34):
Yeah.
EW (00:23:34):
You can't control where it is in the brass.
CW (00:23:36):
I have that problem with circuit boards sometimes. Yeah.
MB (00:23:37):
Yes. And surprisingly, brass, again, even though it's a good conductor of heat, it's not as good as copper. And so heat does travel, but it doesn't travel as fast as say, in copper. This is in my own experience.
MB (00:23:53):
And by using the right amount of heat for the right amount of time, with the right amount of flux, you can quickly solder joints together without the heat traveling to the other solder joint and ruining it. It does take practice, but it's easily doable.
CW (00:24:08):
And can you also apply heat sinks to draw some away in between things?
MB (00:24:12):
Yeah, definitely. So if you were to put this on a metal block, which I use as just a huge block of steel, that also helps sometimes to draw the heat away. And it may or may not work in your favor, if you are putting heat and it's getting sucked away at the same time.
MB (00:24:29):
But I haven't had the necessity to actually put a heat sink, but that actually is a very good idea if you were dealing with complicated structures and you wanted a certain element to stay cool.
EW (00:24:43):
On the interceptor here, which I'm so happy you're in studio, because we get to see them, although, listeners, sorry, -
CW (00:24:51):
Sorry, listeners.
EW (00:24:51):
- you have three parallel wires very close together. How did that work? I mean, you're saying draw the heat away and tape them on the paper, but it seems like as soon as you made one soldering joint, the others would collapse, particularly if they're providing any structural component at that time.
MB (00:25:16):
Right. And since all of these elements are held together with tape, even if there is slight movement, they'll still stay in place.
EW (00:25:23):
Okay.
MB (00:25:24):
But again, you will be surprised how actually easy it is if you tune your time and the temperature right to do closed-solder joints.
EW (00:25:37):
And you said lead-free solder, but so many people have a hard time with that. Did you make the switch, or were you always lead-free?
MB (00:25:46):
No, I had to make a very painful switch. I mean I still, as far as preferences go, prefer leaded solder, just because it's so much easier to work with. But knowing what the right thing here to do is, to use lead-free, just because I think that's the right thing to do.
MB (00:26:05):
I have learned to use slightly higher temperatures and more flux when you're dabbling with lead-free solder. And I think every lead-free solder I have experienced is different. And some have worked for me and some haven't. And I don't really know what the composition is that works for me.
MB (00:26:25):
So I would say maybe it's a combination of the temperature, the flux you use and the solder itself. But I'm trying to stick to lead-free now.
EW (00:26:36):
It's interesting that you say there have been some that work and some that don't. I think so many people get frustrated when they try it, and they don't realize there are different formulations. And to some extent your life will be better if you just get five different kinds of solder and find one that works.
MB (00:26:52):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. My work provides us with different sorts of gauges and formulations, so it's easier to experiment. Because it can be expensive to get big, giant reels of solder. But I suppose if somebody made a sample pack -
EW (00:27:11):
Ooh, that's a good idea.
MB (00:27:12):
- of different lead-free solder and maybe a combination of fluxes then I think, yeah, you can find your perfect match.
EW (00:27:19):
A combination of fluxes would be nice. I never quite get those right. Either I use too much, or too little, or the board is suddenly covered, or it's burning and my nose hurts. I don't understand flux.
CW (00:27:35):
You're not supposed to snort it.
EW (00:27:37):
What? Really? But it smells so good, like Christmas trees.
CW (00:27:41):
Everyone tells me that, and I don't see it.
MB (00:27:43):
Rosin flux I think might. But it's funny, because I never used an exhaust fan to draw away the fumes. To me, when I solder and inhale the fumes, it's very nostalgic. So my coworkers would come by and turn on the fan, and be like, "Why are you soldering without the fan?" And I'm like, "Eh."
CW (00:28:06):
"I kind of like it."
MB (00:28:08):
Everyone's going to get cancer someday.
EW (00:28:10):
Yeah. You do still get a little smell with the fan.
MB (00:28:16):
Yes.
EW (00:28:16):
I tend to agree that you should use the fan. How did you decide that these were sculptures as opposed to bits of electronics? I mean, sculpture's kind of a big word.
MB (00:28:30):
Yeah. I think people use the word dead bug or flywire circuits.
EW (00:28:37):
These are not as fun words.
MB (00:28:38):
Exactly. And I wanted to move away from those words. And I think to me, what made more sense was free-formed because it's free of form, even though it has a form. It sounds more liberating than a dead bug or flywire. And as far as sculptures go, I don't know when, or how, or why I decided to call them sculptures.
MB (00:29:03):
Maybe somebody described it for me. But the idea that these are structures and sometimes these free-from circuits have a personality, they look like robots, or faces, or -
EW (00:29:20):
Interceptors.
MB (00:29:21):
- interceptors. Yeah. And so it makes more sense to call them sculptures than circuits, just circuits.
EW (00:29:28):
Do you ever call yourself an artist?
MB (00:29:31):
I secretly do.
EW (00:29:32):
That's good
MB (00:29:34):
... So I have two elder sisters. And so I usually say that I was raised by three moms. And one of my sisters is very analytical. She has a master's in economics. And my other sister is an interior designer.
MB (00:29:50):
And so I feel like I grew up in a household with these two opposing, people like to call it opposing, I don't, opposing poles of thoughts of creative undertakings and then an analytical math-based world.
MB (00:30:07):
And I feel like I was in between trying to please both my sisters, like, "Hey, look at me. I'm good at math", or my other sister, "Look at me, I'm good at drawing." And I feel like I took that into my adulthood where I am happy to go back and forth between the art world and engineering.
MB (00:30:26):
And I wish more people were able to do that, because that's an extremely happy place to be. It's challenging at times, because school teaches you things that the art world doesn't like, like certain rules that you have to obey when designing electronics in order to pass FCC certifications.
MB (00:30:48):
None of these sculptures would ever pass any sort of FCC certifications, just because they're all flouting it. But you have to unlearn, learn a few things, going back and forth. But that's my happy place, being able to combine engineering and art and find a happy medium.
EW (00:31:07):
Have you sold any of your sculptures?
MB (00:31:08):
Nope.
EW (00:31:10):
Do you want to?
MB (00:31:11):
I don't know. Probably not, because I feel as soon as I start making money off of the sculptures, then the whole idea of, I don't know, making sculptures would feel more work than a hobby.
CW (00:31:26):
Yeah. We've experienced things like that.
MB (00:31:31):
But I am extremely fortunate to be able to work, have a day job -
CW (00:31:36):
Yes.
MB (00:31:36):
- that I equally like that pays well and gives me enough flexibility to dabble in hobbies that don't have to have any monetary value. And I don't think that's true for everyone. People sometimes have to make it work in one or the other. And so I don't know how long this will last, but currently I'm happy not selling them.
CW (00:31:57):
Do you think you'd want to do a show or exhibition once you had a selection that you wanted to put together?
MB (00:32:02):
That is my plan someday to be able to showcase the work at one place -
CW (00:32:09):
Yeah.
MB (00:32:09):
- in an art gallery or a studio of some sort where people can come and physically take a look, instead of just the pretty pictures I post on Instagram.
EW (00:32:19):
You do post some pretty pictures on Instagram and you occasionally put things on your blog that talk about how to do them. How do you balance making the sculptures versus describing making the sculptures?
MB (00:32:37):
Oh, man. I have been getting a lot of requests to do a time-lapse video -
EW (00:32:43):
Ooh, that would be cool.
MB (00:32:44):
- or just video in general of things being built. And I feel, say if I have a certain amount of finite time to fill, it feels more desirable to spend that time building things rather than having to document them. And taking static pictures is so much easier than having to film, edit, and post a video.
EW (00:33:06):
Yes.
MB (00:33:07):
And so I feel I still am leaning towards the idea of using my time to build things rather than documenting. And as far as things posting on the blog, they come in waves.
MB (00:33:17):
I will not post anything for two years and then maybe find some time to document something, post one tutorial, and then go radio silent again. But it's a constant struggle wanting to show how to do things versus wanting to do the things.
EW (00:33:34):
Well, yes. And there are only so many hours in the day.
MB (00:33:37):
Right.
EW (00:33:37):
And sometimes you choose one or the other. How do you take your photos? Ben Hencke was asking if you have a setup for that.
MB (00:33:49):
I do. I mean, I love taking pictures. And I feel taking pictures of people or nature is far more complicated than taking pictures of things on a table, because you have more control over it. You have more control over the lights, the setting, the angle. So I have a setup, which is basically a Canon DSLR.
MB (00:34:12):
It's a T4i, which I bought, I think nine or eight years ago, coupled with a few prime lenses on a tripod and a big light. And I just taught myself to play with the settings to get the field, the right exposure, and then bring out the colors and post.
EW (00:34:31):
And let's see, I have many listener questions. Rueben asked for advice on working with brass wire and how to make the wire straight if the bendy brass wire gets bent wrong.
MB (00:34:46):
I think you have to discard it unless it's a curve. If it has a hard bend, it's almost impossible to straighten it out again. But you can straighten out a reel of brass wire. And this technique I just learned last year is that you take a reel of wire, brass wire, usually around 18 to 20 gauge, half-hard. That's what they call the alloy, ... soft and half-hard.
MB (00:35:13):
And you cut a two-foot length, hold one end in a vice or in between a pair of pliers, and then you hold the other end in a chuck of a drill, a handheld drill. And you literally twist the wire for ten seconds. And the whole twisting action of the wire straightens it into a rod. And so -
EW (00:35:38):
Yeah.
MB (00:35:38):
- when you're done this curved wire turns into a straight brass rod.
CW (00:35:43):
Ten seconds. Wow. If you'd told me to do that, I would've expected it to just fly apart.
MB (00:35:49):
I know, but not at the highest speed.
CW (00:35:50):
Okay.
MB (00:35:50):
You have it at the very low speed.
CW (00:35:51):
Okay.
MB (00:35:51):
So you have more control. So you count 1001, 1002.
CW (00:35:55):
Okay.
MB (00:35:55):
And you do that for 10 seconds and I think -
EW (00:35:58):
And you're twisting it along the axis of the rod?
CW (00:36:02):
Hopefully. Hopefully.
MB (00:36:04):
Right.
EW (00:36:06):
And I guess you would use a chuck for that. Okay. Yeah.
MB (00:36:09):
And I have no idea why and how it works. But even if you go to a hardware store and buy pre-straightened brass rods, you'll see that they have twists on them.
CW (00:36:19):
That's how they did it.
MB (00:36:20):
So that's probably how they do it as to -
EW (00:36:22):
I mean, that makes some sense. If you have a curve and then you twist inside the curve, half of it's going to go up, half of it's going to go down. And since you can't just twist apart, the whole thing has to straighten.
MB (00:36:33):
Right. And structurally it still is sound. If you were to twist a very thin gauge wire, it will just break off.
CW (00:36:40):
Yeah.
MB (00:36:40):
I tried doing that, multiple attempts and couldn't succeed. But 18 to 20 gauge seems to work just fine as far as holding its structure.
EW (00:36:50):
And you've been using brass. Have you tried other things, copper, silver?
MB (00:36:57):
I have not tried silver, but I have tried copper. And I just did not like the way it held its shape. It was too soft for me. And I did not like the color contrast of solder on copper. Somehow those are too -
EW (00:37:19):
The silver and the reddish.
MB (00:37:21):
- reddish. But I think it can be done. There is an artist, Leonardo Ulian, I don't know if I'm ... pronouncing his last name right. But he is an artist who makes sculptures out of brass wires and electronic components, but those are not functional sculptures.
EW (00:37:42):
Out of copper wires?
MB (00:37:43):
Yep. Copper wire and passive electronic components. And his sculptures are more of a drawing or purely a sculpture out of electronic components and copper, but he uses copper beautifully in his sculptures. So I think it can be done.
EW (00:37:59):
Yeah. That is pretty beautiful. But they aren't functional.
MB (00:38:04):
No.
EW (00:38:06):
How much of the TIE interceptor's wings are important?
MB (00:38:11):
They are very important. That's how it flies.
EW (00:38:14):
I deserved that. Yes. Why are wings needed in space at all? I don't understand.
MB (00:38:22):
They help them to land, I suppose.
CW (00:38:25):
They look cool.
MB (00:38:26):
And they look cool.
CW (00:38:27):
That's where you put the solar panels. The TIE fighters are solar-panel-powered and the X-wing's fly in atmosphere, so they need both.
MB (00:38:35):
And you need to put the gun somewhere. But yeah, on this particular sculpture, the wings are pure vanity. They are just for aesthetics. And I have struggled with this, as to how and when do you actually start making things that are purely for aesthetics versus they are actually the part of the structure that makes this whole thing work.
MB (00:38:57):
And I don't have a definitive answer to myself as to when, and why, and how, so I just use it whenever I feel that it would look literally cool.
EW (00:39:08):
Do you recommend people try this, instead of learning to do circuit layout, for people who are just coming to electronics?
MB (00:39:19):
I think you should do both. Having the knowledge of functional electronics is definitely helpful when going into the whole world of making sculptures of free-form electronics. You do need a basic understanding of how to solder, how not to get burned. They say if it smells like chicken, you're doing it wrong.
MB (00:39:41):
And so having breadboarding experience, being able to test a circuit before you actually make a sculpture out of it, is always beneficial. So I wouldn't recommend directly jumping into sculpture making of free-form circuits.
MB (00:39:55):
I think having the experience of breadboarding something and seeing how to debug an electronic circuit will definitely help in making your sculptures more successful. Having said that, there is this person in, I think the Czech Republic, if I am not mistaken, Jiri Praus. He makes these amazing brass sculptures purely out of one LED and coin cells.
MB (00:40:21):
And so you don't even need a background in electronics to pull that off. And they're amazing. You can use them as jewelry, as ornaments, as Christmas tree ornaments. And so there are ways you can use circuit-building ideas and make extremely simple circuits without the knowledge of electronics.
EW (00:40:41):
So jewelry's interesting. I asked about silver wire, because I have done a little bit of wire wrap jewelry. Have you ever looked into classes or books on that to get ideas for different methods of wiring?
MB (00:40:56):
Yes. When I was looking at buying pliers, a lot of the websites and the information pointed me to jewelry pliers that had special flathead tips and round tips. And that was very educational to see actual jewelers use wires.
MB (00:41:17):
But that technique I feel is for if you are doing wire wrapping, as you said, without having to solder, or ... for more organic shapes. I think for doing things that I do in my style, you can get away with a flat needle-nose plier. You don't need those special tools that jewelry makers use.
EW (00:41:43):
Well, one of the things that jewelry pliers don't have is the little grippy bit at the end. Most of my electronics pliers have little teeth at the end for better gripping. But the jewelry pliers don't have those teeth, and they're totally flat at the end. Do yours have teeth?
MB (00:42:03):
No. And so, yeah, that's a very good point, because if you use that, brass is so soft that you will have pinch marks.
EW (00:42:10):
Have little bite marks?
MB (00:42:11):
Yeah. But the pliers I was talking about Xuron it's X-U-R-O-N. It's an American-based company that makes a whole bunch of pliers and diagonal cutters, flush cutters. And I like those because the flush cutters have a retaining clip. So for example, when you are cutting off the leads of an electronic component, the leads usually go flying off, -
EW (00:42:37):
Yeah.
MB (00:42:37):
- never to be found or to be found in a sock. So these flush cutters have a retainer clip. So when you cut something, they retain the cut part holding on the other end so it doesn't go flying off.
MB (00:42:55):
And I happened to discover that after I bought that thing. I'm like, "Oh, this is an interesting feature. I wish all flush cutters had this, because you don't want things to be flying off." And brass can be a flying projectile, because an 18-gauge, it can cause damage if you are not wearing your eyeglasses.
MB (00:43:17):
So that company combined, with just going to Michael's and going through their jewelry section ... I wish they used more colorful pliers and flush cutters that don't have any of those grippy grips at the end. And then there are also pliers that are curved tips, so if you wanted to create loops -
EW (00:43:39):
Yeah. I have some of those that are really fun to play with.
MB (00:43:42):
So those are fun. I actually used one of the loop-making bits to make a loop to hold the TIE interceptor's wings, so as I was soldering, it would not fall off. So they pass through a loop, and then I do a tack joint. And once you are done, then you solder it together.
EW (00:44:02):
Alright. I think that you make me want to try this, but I would want to do all curvy lines, and spirals, and wiggly bits.
MB (00:44:15):
It's funny. The style that I have developed is a style that basically is a fear of curves.
EW (00:44:26):
It is very rectilinear.
MB (00:44:29):
And it's purely because I like the aesthetics and also my inability to do organic shapes. And so it's the combination of my lack of knowledge or skills combined with my draw towards strict lines, because when you are laying out PCBs, all the lines are at either 45 degrees or 90 degrees.
MB (00:44:49):
And it's very, as you said, rectilinear, and that's something that I grew comfortable around. And it's easy to make as opposed to an organic shape of a bird, -
EW (00:45:00):
A flower or mushroom.
MB (00:45:01):
A flower, yes.
EW (00:45:02):
A bird wing. Yeah.
MB (00:45:03):
And so there are people who are dabbling in free-from circuits that are doing organic shapes. For example, Jiri had made this blooming flower, ... flower petals. And it actually is kinematic, which means it has a tiny motor, and that makes the petal leaves bloom.
MB (00:45:23):
It's all over the place. And people are coming up with so many beautiful creative ideas to use this as a way to make sculptures.
EW (00:45:33):
But I like your straight lines, and I can't actually imagine how you get them. How do you get such tight corners?
MB (00:45:43):
It's, again, a lot easier than it looks. All you have to do is find the right plier, apply the right pressure, and every single joint will be pretty tight. And having a template printed out to compare against always helps, so you know that your angles are 90, or 45, or whatever you want.
CW (00:46:04):
I think Tom asked, after he makes a bend, the material springs back. Does that not happen as much with brass as other materials?
MB (00:46:11):
No. Brass is pretty malleable, so it doesn't have the, I don't know what the technical term is, that holds -
EW (00:46:18):
Springiness?
MB (00:46:18):
Springiness.
CW (00:46:19):
Elasticity.
MB (00:46:20):
Elasticity. So it will hold its shape pretty well, as opposed to I think maybe a guitar string or piano wire, maybe.
CW (00:46:28):
Well, they're designed to move back and forth.
EW (00:46:32):
Where do you get your materials? You mentioned going to Michael's, but where do you get your brass wire now?
MB (00:46:38):
Coming back to the story of finding brass wire at ACE Hardware, Home Depot does not carry it, surprisingly. It's only the small hobby stores, so Blick Art, ACE Hardware, Hobby Lobby carries them. And they're all made by the same manufacturer called K&S Metals, based out of Chicago.
MB (00:47:00):
They are the only ones who will sell pre-straightened brass rods in the U.S. But then recently I discovered you can buy a spool of brass wire for much, much cheaper, and then straighten it to the length that you want it to be. And you can buy that off any jewelry store or on Amazon if you would like. And that's a much cheaper way to make these.
EW (00:47:25):
What's been your most ambitious sculpture idea so far?
MB (00:47:31):
Oh, boy.
EW (00:47:31):
Is it the Millennium Falcon? You can tell us.
MB (00:47:33):
It's just an idea. I have been really wanting to introduce motion in the sculptures. So I have this idea of making an animatronic head literally like Johnny 5 out of the movie Short Circuit, but purely based out of free-form circuits, something that can express emotions through rolling its eyes or eyebrows.
MB (00:47:54):
But not too "the uncanny valley" where you don't want it to look too real. And so trying to find that combination where I can introduce more personality to these sculptures by using motion, but it has been on my drawing board since the last year. I still haven't executed on it because -
CW (00:48:14):
Have you ever considered using, and forgive me for giving you suggestions, you do not need suggestions, but things are coming in my head. At a medical company, we used a kind of wire called nitinol, which I think was nickel, titanium, something else.
EW (00:48:28):
Memory wire.
CW (00:48:29):
Yeah. And it would either snap back to a position that it was formed into or you can also apply a current, we didn't do that, and it'll do stuff. Have you ever played with that?
MB (00:48:40):
I have seen that. And in fact the BEAM community was talking about using those. And I think if I am not wrong, those wires take a while -
CW (00:48:49):
Yeah.
MB (00:48:49):
- to change shape.
CW (00:48:50):
Yeah.
MB (00:48:50):
It's for very slow-moving sculptures. That could possibly be looked into. But yeah, I don't know if it solders well, but the idea that you use them as muscles -
CW (00:49:02):
Yeah.
MB (00:49:02):
- in a sculpture would be interesting.
EW (00:49:04):
Why aren't your sculptures covered in blobs of hot glue like mine would be?
MB (00:49:10):
If hot glue conducted, I probably might also start using it. And again, this is an internal struggle. Do you want to use tape? Do you want to use wire? Do you want to use glue in your sculptures, or do you want to be a purist and just only use solder? Because it can be looked upon as a challenge. Like, "Can I do this purely using brass wire and solder?"
EW (00:49:35):
I mean, because with everything I understand from soldering, you're not supposed to use solder as a structural element. That was one of the things that I always did wrong, but you are in fact breaking that rule.
MB (00:49:49):
I suppose. Yes.
CW (00:49:50):
Well, it's used as a structural element, and plumbing, and other kinds of welding.
MB (00:49:53):
True. And I also found out, I mean, before I discovered the whole world of using brass for circuits, people have been using brass for centuries. And model rail builders have been using brass to make fences, and rail tracks, and just things that will then later be painted on so you don't see the brass.
MB (00:50:14):
But it, I mean, to my surprise has been a favorite material for artists, especially in model making, for a very, very long time. And so I think brass and solder were meant to be together.
EW (00:50:28):
What has been your largest sculpture?
MB (00:50:32):
I would say this TIE interceptor, because it doesn't fit inside one of those glass domes that I have. But I would say that's one of the biggest. And I would always keep the structure size small to begin with, anything that can fit on my desktop. So I don't have any ideas or plans to make giant sculptures. I like to keep them small.
EW (00:50:57):
I want to take that. So some of the other sculptures that Mohit has brought us, they are on little wooden platforms. And it's clear that you could put a bell jar over them. But the TIE interceptor, its wings go a little outside its wood. I really want to put it into a snow globe and shake it up.
MB (00:51:21):
Shake it up, why?
EW (00:51:23):
I don't know. It just looks like it belongs in a snow globe.
MB (00:51:27):
It could. And I suppose you can, yeah.
CW (00:51:29):
A little large.
MB (00:51:31):
Snow and TIE fighters. Yeah, I think -
CW (00:51:34):
Make them little stars.
EW (00:51:36):
Yeah. Little stars. What do you have planned next?
MB (00:51:42):
I have a book full of ideas, and I feel like I just I'm struggling to find time to get these sculptures made. But my new year's resolution for back in 2019 was to make more videos that I have completely not crushed. I probably made two videos. And I think I want an attempt at making more videos.
MB (00:52:06):
Because that's something that can be educational to people who want to get a glimpse into what the process looks like. And I feel like I owe that at least to the folks who are interested in knowing how to make things. So making videos of the sculptures being built is I think on the agenda.
EW (00:52:26):
Would you just want to make videos of, "Here's me building a new thing," or, "Here's a tutorial. ... Here's how you properly bend this or solder it?
MB (00:52:35):
Ideally both. I mean, YouTube can be a rabbit hole.
CW (00:52:39):
Yes.
New Speaker (00:52:39):
And you come across these amazing, amazing edited videos of how to do things.
CW (00:52:43):
Yeah.
MB (00:52:43):
And I have this notion where I will make this video with the right editing and the right angles explaining certain ideas. But I feel, I think, at the end of the day, what I'm going to do is just have an overhead camera, -
CW (00:52:57):
Yeah.
MB (00:52:58):
And just start there instead of trying to get it right the way I want it to be.
EW (00:53:05):
It is really hard. I've wanted to do videos, but I don't want to put out the quality of video that I am capable of making. And yet I see other people put out videos that are great, but they aren't necessarily high quality. They just tell me what I want to know. And yet I can't quite bring myself to put out that quality.
MB (00:53:27):
Yes.
EW (00:53:27):
So it's a vicious cycle. And then there's the problem of, all the time you spend doing the video and learning how to make it good is time you're not spending bending wire.
MB (00:53:37):
Exactly. Exactly. But in the grand scheme of things, I don't know, if I'm going to build ten sculptures in a year, maybe I shouldn't be making only eight and just consciously decide that yes, I want to make a video, even if it's not the best video that I can come up with. It leads a video. So get that out the door.
EW (00:53:57):
You need to con somebody else into making the video for it. What's your plan? What do you want to be when you grow up?
MB (00:54:08):
Oh, boy. That has changed over the years. I think in an ideal world, I would see myself not work for money.
EW (00:54:18):
Yes, yes. Let's all do that.
MB (00:54:22):
Maybe have a cabin out in the woods with a electronics lab, and a machine shop, and just keep building things because, because I want to. And having the privilege of being able to do that without having to worry about anything else would be nice.
CW (00:54:40):
Has your work with this kind of fabrication fit back into how you think about your day job, layout, or other things?
MB (00:54:49):
Not really layout, but it has pushed me to look into different displays, exotic displays, vintage electronics, and just being able to appreciate how things were built, coming across different circuits to drive these. It's educational, not the act of building it, but the research that you have to do to get there.
MB (00:55:14):
Because I would not look into Nixie tubes at my day job ever. But this has forced me to, "Hey, maybe you should use Nixie tubes in your next project." But you have to have a high voltage driver to drive the Nixie tubes. How do you do that? And you look into the circuits that would allow you to do that.
MB (00:55:32):
And so you're always learning new things. It's not just that you're using the existing knowledge that you have to make these sculptures. So yes, there's a lot of incoming knowledge from that world as well.
EW (00:55:44):
And does it apply? I mean, I'm always of the opinion that no knowledge is truly wasted, that learning itself is a useful activity, but does it have any practical use?
MB (00:55:59):
Not really.
EW (00:56:00):
That's cool.
MB (00:56:00):
No, no practical use at all.
EW (00:56:02):
What did you do with Nixie tubes?
MB (00:56:04):
I wanted to make... what did I do? Let me answer that. I bought them.
CW (00:56:11):
Where it always starts.
EW (00:56:13):
And so often where it ends.
MB (00:56:16):
Yes. And that's where it has ended for me for now, because I went again on eBay trying to find the coolest of the cool Nixie tubes. And I have a collection, a box full of them, and all the required circuitry, and the components to make it happen.
MB (00:56:31):
I wanted to make a bedside clock with Nixie tubes and free-from circuits which I haven't done yet. And that is also in the long list of project ideas that I have, is the theme of using Nixie tubes to make different sculptures. I have gotten close to it by using Numitron tubes and Numitrons, they look exactly like Nixie tubes.
MB (00:56:55):
Numitron is N-U-M-I-T-R-O-N. Numitron, it's a Japanese, I think, word. So instead of using gas discharge around the digits, he uses filaments just like your light bulbs, incandescent light bulbs. But they operate at a much lower voltage, at five volts.
MB (00:57:14):
So you can use your low-voltage electronics to drive them, but they give the same old vintage look of a Nixie tube. So I have made a bedside clock using it, but haven't really used Nixie tubes yet. So that's on the agenda. I have also invested in old cathode-ray tubes, the CRT tubes that would go into old oscilloscopes, not full color, but just single, color-scanning CRT tubes.
MB (00:57:45):
And there are projects out there that you can display certain texts and even an analog clock. So yeah, you would not believe how many boxes of electronics I've collected over the years. And I had to transport them from Minneapolis to San Francisco.
MB (00:58:03):
And we downsized quite a bit, but we have an entire room just for the boxes upon boxes that I have of all the parts for future projects.
EW (00:58:14):
You mentioned you moved from Minneapolis to San Francisco pretty recently.
MB (00:58:18):
Yes. It was in July of this year.
EW (00:58:21):
What's been the best and the worst part of that?
MB (00:58:24):
Oh, boy. I grew up along the coastline in Mumbai, and I've always been drawn to the ocean. So being back, being able to be next to a sea or a coastline has been the best thing ever. And California offers you ocean, mountains, snow, desert. It's just so much.
CW (00:58:44):
And traffic.
MB (00:58:45):
And traffic. Yes. So that's the good. The bad has been just getting around in the city. Not a big fan of San Francisco as a city, but a big fan of California as a state.
EW (00:59:00):
Well, I think we have kept you from the sunshine and the beach long enough. Do you have any thoughts you'd like to leave us with?
MB (00:59:09):
I would say to the listeners that if you are drawn to this way of building sculptures, you should definitely give it a try. It's much, much easier than it looks, and yeah, you should definitely give it a try.
EW (00:59:26):
Our guest has been Mohit Bhoite, sculptor and Senior Hardware Engineer at Particle.
CW (00:59:33):
Thanks, Mohit. This was fun.
MB (00:59:35):
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
EW (00:59:37):
Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you to listener Rueben for requesting Mohit be on the show. See the contact link on embedded.fm. See it really does work. Thank you to the embedded Patreon Slack channel for questions, and thank you to the patrons for Mohit's mic. Although he brought it back, because he brought it in to us.
EW (01:00:00):
And then thank you for listening. You can contact us, contact link on embedded.fm or show@embedded.fm. And before we close up, I do want to remind you that it's December, which is usually considered the giving season. We should give all year long.
EW (01:00:16):
But if you have some donations that you want to make, remember when we had Jacob on to talk about Digital NEST? One of our very fine and generous listeners has offered to match anything you can donate up to $2,500. So if we all work together, they get $5,000, and that means a few more people get access to technology they wouldn't otherwise get access to.
EW (01:00:46):
We're very proud of our listeners who have contributed, and we'd like to invite you to join them. And finally, a quote to leave you with, from the movie Short Circuit. And it is the robot speaking here. "Number 5, stupid name...want to be Kevin or Dave!"
EW (01:01:09):
Embedded is an independently produced radio show that focuses on the many aspects of engineering. It is a production of Logical Elegance, an embedded software consulting company in California.
EW (01:01:21):
If there are advertisements in the show, we did not put them there and do not receive money from them. At this time, our sponsors are Logical Elegance and listeners like you.