142: New and Improved Appendages
Transcript from 142: New and Improved Appendages with Sarah Petkus, Elecia White, and Christopher White.
EW (00:00:06):
This is Embedded.fm. I'm Elecia White. My co-host is Christopher White, and our guest is Sarah Petkus, commander of the first robot army.
EW (00:00:16):
One thing before we beg for mechanical mercy: our multimedia empire continues to grow. The blog and the show now have a newsletter you can get in your email. Given my inbox, I have no idea why you'd want such a thing. And I respect your different opinion, and bow to your request.
EW (00:00:36):
To sign up, go to embedded.fm, hit the subscribe link, and then maybe the blog link, to look around. And then if you feel so inclined, share these links with your friends.
CW (00:00:46):
Hi Sarah. Thanks for being on the show today.
SP (00:00:48):
Thank you for having me.
EW (00:00:50):
Could you tell us about yourself?
SP (00:00:52):
[Ah], let's see. I am a kinetic artist, who builds robots and other mechanical devices, that are based on the characters and environments from my illustrations.
EW (00:01:05):
Kinetic artist. That is an interesting and not standard title.
SP (00:01:15):
Kinetic artist. Well, let's see,...my background stems from illustration and printmaking, but I've moven into the interactive realm. So everything that I make these days moves and is roughly robotic. So I think kinetic artist is appropriate.
EW (00:01:38):
Very cool. I mean,...we talk to a lot of engineers, and a couple of artists, and I hadn't heard that. And yet it does kind of evoke movement. Alright. Alright. We usually do this lightning round thing, where we ask you short questions, and want short answers.
EW (00:02:01):
And then if we're being very good and disciplined about it, we don't ask for explanations. That never happens. So Chris, do you have any questions to get started?
CW (00:02:11):
Sure. Introvert or extrovert?
SP (00:02:15):
Introvert.
EW (00:02:18):
Cats or dogs?
SP (00:02:20):
Neither.
CW (00:02:23):
Form or functionality?
SP (00:02:26):
[Ooo]. Neither.
EW (00:02:31):
Art or engineering?
SP (00:02:33):
Both.
EW (00:02:35):
I broke the streak.
CW (00:02:37):
Most important tool to your daily work. Soldering iron, keyboard, mouse, or pencil?
SP (00:02:48):
[Ooo]. Probably pencil.
CW (00:02:49):
Really? Okay, cool.
EW (00:02:51):
Favorite fictional robot?
SP (00:02:55):
Oh, man. I love Data. It's Data.
EW (00:03:00):
That's a good one. Yeah.
CW (00:03:03):
Gryffindor or Hufflepuff?
SP (00:03:07):
I hate Harry Potter...That's not one word...I'm sorry.
CW (00:03:14):
No, no. This is why we ask the same questions often of different people, is because we want to explore all of the possible answers, and that is a good one.
SP (00:03:22):
It's a neither.
CW (00:03:24):
Burn it down.
SP (00:03:25):
Burn it.
EW (00:03:25):
Have you seen Star Wars? Although now I'm a little afraid to ask.
SP (00:03:29):
I have, unfortunately.
EW (00:03:32):
[Ooh].
SP (00:03:33):
[Ooh]. Oh no. Oh no...Everyone's going to hate me....Yes. I have seen it.
CW (00:03:42):
She already said Data was her favorite robot, so, I mean -
EW (00:03:45):
Yeah, so, that makes sense for a lot. We're good.
CW (00:03:46):
From the Star Trek side of things.
EW (00:03:50):
Okay. In what year will the robot war start?
SP (00:03:55):
I'm working on this year, but we'll see. I don't know. War? If we're talking the command and cuddle type war, then hopefully this year. I mean, that's the goal every year though.
EW (00:04:08):
Command and cuddle type war.
SP (00:04:11):
Yes.
EW (00:04:11):
Excuse me. We're typing that down right now. And you have one more?
CW (00:04:18):
Sure. But I'm afraid to ask now. Who do you find inspiring? And there's a list of people here, and you don't have to take any of them. Tesla, Jebs, who's Jebs?
EW (00:04:29):
Jobs.
CW (00:04:29):
Jobs. Oh. Edison, [Wozniak], Grace Hopper, Elon Musk.
SP (00:04:34):
I think Elon Musk and Tesla -
CW (00:04:38):
Okay.
SP (00:04:38):
- are inspiring. Yeah.
EW (00:04:40):
Should we bring back the dinosaurs?
SP (00:04:44):
Yes. We totally should.
SP (00:04:47):
Nice, definitive, excited "yes." I like that.
SP (00:04:50):
Especially raptors.
CW (00:04:52):
That sounds like the thing we should definitely not bring back. Brontosauruses, and -
EW (00:04:58):
The slow ones...
CW (00:05:01):
Yeah, yeah. The ones we can outrun.
EW (00:05:02):
Yes.
SP (00:05:02):
It would make life interesting, right?
EW (00:05:05):
Is that so that your robot army has something to do? So you have a robot army. Tell us more.
SP (00:05:12):
Okay. So my robot army consists of miniature delta robots. So...unless we're talking stomping the world flat, they're not very threatening. The army was based on illustrations that I did a long time ago in college that depicted people kind of wading in a field of incandescent light bulbs in the dark.
SP (00:05:39):
So it's totally departed from that by this point. It's kind of taken on this militant, army sort of imagery, and I've made a lot of propaganda to kind of promote it in that way. So even though they aren't very threatening, they are our army, and we're very proud of our kids.
EW (00:06:03):
And so you have how many? 100? 150?
SP (00:06:07):
I think we've got 100 by now, but...in our installation, because it is a kinetic art installation, we show 84 of them. Precisely.
EW (00:06:16):
Why 84? It's not 9x9.
CW (00:06:20):
Two of them broke.
SP (00:06:24):
...I hope I'm quoting the right number...So the installation is modular.
EW (00:06:30):
Makes sense.
SP (00:06:30):
So they're in kind of these pallets of 7. So we have 12 pallets of 7, and we can kind of move them around however we like, and that's why there's 84 specifically. And then we have about 10 or 15 retired ones that are in the workroom as fixtures, actually... -
EW (00:06:53):
Sitting there.
CW (00:06:54):
Collecting pensions.
EW (00:06:54):
Getting sad.
SP (00:06:55):
Yes.
EW (00:06:55):
Collecting pensions and dust.
SP (00:06:58):
Yes.
EW (00:06:59):
Okay. You control them with Kinect? Leap? Some sort of thing where you've danced and they dance?
SP (00:07:09):
The original intention, and we're still sort of working towards this, is that one person would be capable of controlling them very one-to-one, one-on-one. We were thinking of using one of those EEG devices.
SP (00:07:24):
The EPOC or whatever was out in the past, but once we discovered how they're not really the greatest thing since sliced bread, they don't really do exactly what they say that you can with them -
EW (00:07:36):
Those are the ones that say they can read your mind, and they're totally bogus?
SP (00:07:39):
Yes.
EW (00:07:40):
Okay.
CW (00:07:40):
I think they're only slightly bogus.
EW (00:07:42):
They're pretty bogus.
SP (00:07:44):
Well, we didn't -
EW (00:07:44):
I mean, if you have a 50/50 chance of going one way or the other, and this brings you to a 50.00001% chance of going one way or the other, which was what it felt like to me -
CW (00:07:55):
I think you have to train on them, but yeah. Okay.
EW (00:07:56):
Okay. Okay. But yes. Okay. Mind control. Mind-controlled robots. Yes.
SP (00:08:01):
Yeah.
EW (00:08:01):
Nothing can go wrong there.
SP (00:08:03):
Everybody wants to control robots with their mind, right? That's got to be everyone's bucket list item, I think. I mean, at least for me. But we wanted to go in that direction. And once we realized how impractical that was, we started experimenting with the Kinect and the Leap.
SP (00:08:21):
Because we did want to continue developing the installation so that people could control the robots and experience what it was like to have these machines as an extension of their body. And we began doing development with the Kinect, but it was a lot harder to get them to look right, I guess.
SP (00:08:44):
Because...it would lose sight of the person it was tracking, and then they would do kind of strange things. And it kind of broke the feel, the illusion, I guess. So we started playing around with the Leap, with the discreet hand control, and it's a little bit more graceful, I would say.
SP (00:09:05):
And people figure out how to...interface with the robots a little bit easier this way too. Because we have the Leap mounted in a podium right now, and...they figure out immediately that they're supposed to do something with that. And they'll wave their hands over it, and very quickly figure out that they can control the robots.
SP (00:09:26):
But,...we're constantly working on new ways to control them, because now that we do have the 84 robots, it's just a matter of, "Well, what other things can you do with 84 robots that would be cool to see," right?
EW (00:09:42):
I have so many ideas. So many ideas. Like, can they be a backup band for my gesticulations for my next conference presentation? Because that would be so cool.
SP (00:09:52):
Totally. Yeah. They can be your backup dancers. But that's kind of actually what we're going for this year. I made propaganda to pass out at Maker Faire this year, and it actually shows them as backup dancers behind Mark and I. And we're doing the disco, and there's a disco ball above us. And I don't know, they're dan -
EW (00:10:12):
We're going to need video of that.
SP (00:10:14):
Yeah.
EW (00:10:17):
...They've been out in the world without you. What is the strangest thing people have wanted to do with them?
SP (00:10:28):
The strangest thing people, people -
EW (00:10:30):
And this is a clean radio show, so keep it clean.
SP (00:10:36):
Okay. Okay.
EW (00:10:36):
I just made that so much worse, didn't I?
SP (00:10:38):
Well, since you put it that way. Strange in a non-whatever way, somebody wanted to get a bunch of them and stretch nylon over them, which I guess isn't really weird. But since that isn't what I envisioned them to be, it feels weird to me.
SP (00:11:00):
They wanted to put fabric over kind of an array of them, and watch the nylon or whatever diffuse the light, and kind of undulate, and change shape. And that seems like a really cool idea, but I would never have put fabric over them. And then -
EW (00:11:18):
Was it Christo? Because I hear he puts fabric on everything.
SP (00:11:21):
I don't know. It's possible. It could have been...One of our friends actually put a Halloween costume on one of them, and it looked like...one of those little spider monkeys underneath a sheet, running around, doing weird things like dancing and stuff.
SP (00:11:40):
And it was really believable. You thought it was like a small creature dressed up like a ghost dancing around, but it was just a delta robot.
EW (00:11:50):
Do you ever have any fears about them gaining any autonomy, or are they really well-wired down?
SP (00:12:03):
I would say I daydream about them being autonomous. They're like my kids, right? They all have their own little personalities and stuff. So I would like them to be autonomous, so they can be my little pets, but I think we're pretty safe. They're not going to become autonomous. They are what they are.
CW (00:12:25):
It seems like you have enough of them that you could start playing around with things like "The Game of Life," or other similar -
EW (00:12:32):
Automata?
CW (00:12:32):
- simple rules-based, cellular automata-based things where they would interact with each other, and then do different things based on those interactions. I don't know. I'm just thinking they have a lot of little things, that you could take things that are normally on a screen and make them physical.
SP (00:12:51):
I would love to make them more behavioral...For me, I was originally thinking of just choreographing them to look like they're having maybe a conversation with each other. So you're kind of this voyeur watching this herd of robots kind of communicate.
EW (00:13:10):
Doing "the wave?" They can do the wave on their own.
SP (00:13:12):
Well, even if...some of them were leaning towards each other and acting a certain way.
EW (00:13:16):
Yeah.
SP (00:13:16):
And then something would happen at the other end of the installation that would get all the other ones' attention. And they would lean over in that direction and change a certain color, and you got this distinct sense that they were aware of one another and alive.
SP (00:13:30):
But to have them do that autonomously would be even cooler. I have no idea how we'd do that, but that would -
EW (00:13:36):
Sensors. You'd need more sensors.
SP (00:13:38):
Yes. Input, right?
EW (00:13:39):
Yeah.
SP (00:13:39):
Maybe.
EW (00:13:39):
...You have instructions for how to build these robots, right?
SP (00:13:47):
Yes.
EW (00:13:48):
And you did a Kickstarter involving said instructions.
SP (00:13:52):
We did. Two years ago now. Wow...My partner Mark and I did our first Kickstarter for this art installation, and we brought the design of the individual robot to market as a kit. And we called it the "Robot Army Starter Kit." And you could buy one of the robots.
SP (00:14:14):
And in return for buying one, you were basically affording a robot cousin in our art installation for us to keep. So we sold about 250 kits, and we built about 100. And then used the rest of the money for support materials, and the bases, and travel to some of the first places we went to.
SP (00:14:35):
But, yeah, the project, it's ongoing. We're still building it up, and we're still selling kits. And...all of the code we develop and the design of the parts, it's open source.
SP (00:14:48):
So if you wanted to take on building your own, and kind of just using our 3D-printable parts, and the blueprint to our baseboard, and our code, you could totally do that. If you email Mark or I with questions, we'll be happy to answer them too.
EW (00:15:07):
And how many of the kits that you sent out do you think got built? I mean, did you get pictures of, "Here's my robot?"
SP (00:15:16):
We got some...I want to say somewhere between 10 or 20 people immediately took pictures of what happened to their robot. Because we were kind of encouraging people to name them, and then tell the story of their unit, where it is in the world, and what it's doing.
SP (00:15:36):
And some people did, and some people didn't. Or most people didn't actually, but, yeah,...at least a good number of people did.
EW (00:15:47):
Were you aware of the book, it's an anthology of science fiction and fantasy stories called, "HELP FUND MY ROBOT ARMY!!! and Other Improbable Crowdfunding Projects?"
SP (00:16:00):
I think someone sent me a link to that at some point in time, and I looked at it, and I didn't know where it came from, or I didn't have any context for it. Tell me more about that.
EW (00:16:14):
It's an Amazon book, and...a number of normal sci-fi fantasy authors got together, and they each have their own Kickstarter pitch. And most of them look exactly like the Kickstarter page, and one of them, they ask you to help fund their robot army.
EW (00:16:33):
And it's not for an art project in the end. I believe it's for world domination, but, you know, potato, pot-ah-to.
SP (00:16:42):
Well, ours is for world domination. Yeah.
EW (00:16:46):
How's that going out for you?
SP (00:16:49):
It's been fun. As long as we have fun, that's the important part, right? You don't have to get there.
EW (00:16:56):
But your army just came back from, I believe, overseas.
SP (00:17:02):
It wasn't the whole army...We sent one unit to Tokyo...One of their hackerspaces has a designed objects contest every year, I think it's YouFab, a juried show. And we submitted our project, and as finalists we sent in one unit for them to, I don't know, put on display, and look at, and judge.
SP (00:17:29):
So...I actually couldn't pick one to send away to Tokyo. I felt...like a mother. I didn't know 100% that I was going to be getting the robot back, because, I don't know, you're sending it away across the ocean, and who knows what's going to happen.
SP (00:17:49):
And I had to use a random number generator thingy to lottery-select one of the robots to send away, because I felt horrible just picking one. So the one that we picked, I think it was, I forget the number, but its name was [Ming] of all things. I think Mark and I named an entire pallet of robots after our favorite cooking hosts from Create TV.
SP (00:18:18):
I don't know if anyone, do you watch Create? I don't know. We do, on PBS.
EW (00:18:23):
We don't, but we might now.
SP (00:18:24):
Okay. When we were assembling a lot of the robots, we had that on in the background. So it just seemed appropriate that we name a pallet after our favorite chefs. So we named one [Ming], and it's the one that got to go to Tokyo. And I haven't been there yet, but I want to. So I'm kind of jealous of this robot.
EW (00:18:45):
Do you know that the robots aren't people? I just want to know if you know that. Although when I watch your videos, it is something I see...I'm going to switch topics, because it will make more sense if we talk about NoodleFeet, and that's one of your new projects.
SP (00:19:03):
Yes.
EW (00:19:04):
And every time you talk, you start to talk about NoodleFeet as though it is a robot sitting over here. And then a second later you switch to, "And then Noodle did this," just like he's your young friend, or little kid. "You'd be so amazed. NoodleFeet licked the floor today."
SP (00:19:25):
Yes. Yes. He's my one-year-old. He's totally my one-year-old. He has his own socks and everything. I have a collection of clothing just for him, Noodle, that, yeah, whatever. Noodle, I started building him last January. And he was from originally a dream.
SP (00:19:48):
But he's a character that I started drawing in the margins of my sketchbooks, because I had dreamt about this thing. And the more I drew it, the more I wanted to actually build it, because it became a character that I used in my writing.
SP (00:20:04):
And I wanted to see it exist in the real world. And it was a huge challenge to build a quadruped robot, and it involved a lot of things that I know nothing about. So if I did succeed in building the NoodleFeet character, it would mean that I learned all of these things necessary to make it possible.
SP (00:20:22):
So I was like, "Alright, let's do it." And he's a project that I'm continuously working on. I don't know if he's ever gonna be done. I don't think that's the point.
SP (00:20:34):
But I kind of treat him like my child. Because he's learning to walk, and he's learning to do all these things that I think a small, toddler, human baby would be doing too, if that makes any sense.
EW (00:20:53):
It does actually. I've had robots to take care of. Yes..."And now we do this. And now you get power. And here you go." But your writing,...is that Gravity Roads, your webcomic?
SP (00:21:09):
Yes.
EW (00:21:10):
Okay.
SP (00:21:11):
I mentioned I have a strong background in traditional arts, I guess. I got started doing illustration, and printmaking, and painting, and whatnot. And I love to write. And I more or less got into doing art-related anything because of the fact that I liked to write about things.
SP (00:21:33):
And if you can illustrate an idea that you have in your head, it's a lot easier to show somebody what that idea looks like than write a whole essay about it, if that makes any sense. And once I started drawing everything, the next step was to actually make the things that I drew, right?
SP (00:21:51):
And Noodle kind of followed the same process. The comic, Gravity Road, that I started illustrating,...I more or less started doing that because I wanted to keep in practice with the drawing. Because I, for a couple of years, didn't really draw, or paint, or do anything all that much.
SP (00:22:12):
And it made me sad. And drawing is one of those things where if you don't do it, you get really bad at it. Fast. So the webcomic kind of keeps me stretching that skill consistently. And it makes me happier to be doing it regularly. And the comic is loosely about the things that I am actually making. So they go hand in hand.
EW (00:22:38):
And so in the comic, well, and in real life, Noodle, he looks sort of spideresque. He's got a body, and he's got, I want to say elbows, or knees, that are upward. Maybe I should let you describe him.
SP (00:22:54):
I'd say if Noodle had a spirit animal, he would be a crab-lamb.
EW (00:22:58):
Crab-lamb.
SP (00:22:58):
He's...like a little crab with lamb legs, because of the noodles. I don't know.
EW (00:23:07):
You know that when you're doing crosses, you really shouldn't cross predator and prey species. It goes badly. What would a lamb-crab eat? I mean -
SP (00:23:18):
I don't know.
CW (00:23:18):
Crab-lamb. Lamb-crab would eat crab-lambs.
SP (00:23:21):
Yes.
EW (00:23:22):
Alright. Okay.
SP (00:23:23):
I'll go with that.
EW (00:23:23):
But yes, he has the crabby legs. I get that. And then why do you say his legs are lamb leg?
SP (00:23:32):
Well, right now, since he's mostly 3D-printed parts, they're very wobbly.
EW (00:23:37):
Oh, okay.
SP (00:23:38):
They're wobbly when he walks. And then he has the thick, white noodle material for...I guess his feet, calf parts. And they do look very like the little chubby baby lamb legs. I think.
EW (00:23:56):
And...the feet are really complicated. I mean, there are many servos. What do the feet do? And why is there blow-up stretchy material? What is the noodle? I have so many questions.
SP (00:24:15):
So each of his legs, they lift, and they spin, for movement, right? So the motors in his hips, there's 2 per leg. So he's got 8 in his body. And then, not currently installed in him at the moment, but in the works are big kid feet. I'll call them big kid feet.
SP (00:24:38):
The next iteration of his individual feet is a 4-inch thick cylinder. I don't know if it's going to end up being noodle material anymore at this point, because there's actually working systems inside of it.
SP (00:24:53):
But it's a foot that contains the mechanism to support retractable toes. There's a feeding syringe that will hold fluids, so that he can drool out of the center of each of his feet -
CW (00:25:11):
What!?
SP (00:25:11):
- from a silicone tongue.
CW (00:25:13):
This has gone -
EW (00:25:14):
...When I said he licked the floor, you thought I was kidding.
CW (00:25:20):
I just -
EW (00:25:20):
You were just like, "Yeah, whatever."
CW (00:25:23):
Okay. His feet lick the -
EW (00:25:23):
So he drools, and then he can lick things up.
SP (00:25:26):
Yes. He has -
EW (00:25:29):
And he's got little claws, retractable -
CW (00:25:31):
Well, thanks for being on the show. It's been fun talking to you.
EW (00:25:34):
Christopher needs to build a bunker. [Laughter].
SP (00:25:39):
Oh.
CW (00:25:41):
No, no, no, go on. This is amazing.
SP (00:25:46):
I'm essentially building something that can hold you in place while it tastes you, and drools on you, and salivates, but -
EW (00:25:54):
I've had this nightmare.
SP (00:25:56):
It's [laughter] -
CW (00:25:59):
This is why people buy dogs.
SP (00:26:02):
It can leak. So, I didn't mention this, and this is kind of important, I guess. Noodle, the whole point of Noodle was that he's a leg hugger. He's supposed to be able to walk on the ground, and locate the legs of humans nearby, and then walk towards them, and lean on them. And that was the original plan for him.
SP (00:26:24):
So it would involve some computer vision, and I have the Pi mounted in his head to support the camera that will eventually do that. But I haven't made it that far yet. But he was supposed to be a leg hugger.
SP (00:26:35):
And along the way, along the journey, and many late nights drinking beer and talking with Mark, I kind of decided that it would be humorous if, when he recognized certain people, he had different behaviors.
SP (00:26:50):
And it would be really humorous if when he walked up and leaned on certain humans, he left a little wet spot or voided some fluid, I don't know, out of some response to whomever. And that evolved into the syringe that holds the fluid.
SP (00:27:09):
And then he has a little silicone tongue that's, you know those basters? The barbecue basters that hold the marinade, and then you can squeeze them and brush the fluid onto your meat.
CW (00:27:21):
Yes.
EW (00:27:21):
They look sort of like expelled Play-Doh, if you put Play-Doh through a colander.
SP (00:27:24):
Yeah.
CW (00:27:25):
It's got little fingers.
EW (00:27:26):
It's got lots of little, tiny -
CW (00:27:28):
Yeah.
SP (00:27:29):
Little bristles.
EW (00:27:29):
Yeah.
SP (00:27:30):
So I found those in neon yellow, because it matches all of the stuff that we make. And I ordered them from China, and they got here. So he has little yellow tongues that -
EW (00:27:43):
4 of them.
CW (00:27:43):
Proboscises.
SP (00:27:43):
4 of them. Yes. And they dart down from the center of his foot, and they juice.
EW (00:27:52):
Retractable proboscises.
SP (00:27:54):
Yes. Yes.
CW (00:27:55):
Everything I've worked on has been dumb. Why am I not building things like this? Have you considered going into movie practical effects?
SP (00:28:08):
...No.
EW (00:28:12):
No, because -
SP (00:28:12):
No.
EW (00:28:12):
- then you have to do other people's ideas.
SP (00:28:13):
Yes.
EW (00:28:13):
This is such a great idea on its own.
CW (00:28:15):
Well, then you have to be like Tim Burton and -
EW (00:28:18):
Yeah.
CW (00:28:18):
- make your own movie and your own stuff.
EW (00:28:19):
...How big is NoodleFeet?...Well, I guess he's a leg hugger. So he's probably knee-high?
CW (00:28:26):
Please lower.
SP (00:28:28):
He's, I would say, maybe a little under two feet tall...Yeah, I'd say comes to right under your knee.
EW (00:28:38):
Making a robot move on 4 feet and then be able to lick you. This all has some mechanical challenges.
SP (00:28:50):
Yes. It so does.
EW (00:28:53):
You have an art degree. And you're doing robotics. That is really, really cool. How?
SP (00:29:00):
So...like I said, the majority, like 99.999% of my academic history was spent studying 2D art. I did all illustration and stuff. And then at the very, very end, I was going to school at SAIC in Chicago. I had a professor approach me, and they saw that I liked to draw robots, and technology, and nerdy imagery, and whatnot.
SP (00:29:33):
And they basically said, "You really like drawing robots. Maybe you should try making robots instead." And the school happened to have an art tech department that was amazing, that I knew nothing about. I didn't even know it existed.
SP (00:29:51):
And since I had decided it was going to be my last semester there, I decided to drop all of my printmaking classes and just sort of go and do it. And I signed up for a 4000-level robotics class without knowing the difference between AC and DC electricity.
SP (00:30:10):
And I knew nothing. Zero. And I went into it, and...it was the single most important thing I think I've ever done in my life, because everything that I've done after that one 4 or 5 month period is a result of what I learned in those classes that I took.
SP (00:30:32):
It inspired me so much...That was what I wanted to do. It didn't matter if I was in school,...I was going to learn what I needed to know to make the things that I wanted to. I got the permission that I needed to do the thing.
EW (00:30:48):
And so, was the class primarily mechatronics or, I mean, robotics for artists? I mean, this was an art school, not an engineering school.
SP (00:30:58):
It was kind of amazing. Because the way that the school worked is, you didn't have to have any prerequisites to take classes, but if you didn't know any of the support knowledge, you had to figure it out on your own. You were kind of responsible for getting that knowledge from somewhere, and you wrote your own curriculum.
SP (00:31:19):
So you decided what your goals were for having taken that class. And you would come up with a project that you wanted to build, and it could be anything, whatever your vision was for an art thing. And you would make the proposal for it.
SP (00:31:37):
And then it was the responsibility of the professor to teach you the things that you didn't know, and they would fill in all the blanks. And then whether or not you fulfilled your own expectations of the course, your own curriculum,...that would decide whether or not you passed or failed, if that makes any sense.
SP (00:31:55):
So the professor had knowledge in that subject and...if you're doing a project that involved pumps and electronics, then they would teach you about pumps and electronics. If you were making a mechanical thing, then they would teach you how to machine parts or 3D print parts.
SP (00:32:15):
And then they would introduce you to the Arduino. And...they would teach you exactly what it was that you needed to know to make the thing that you wanted work.
SP (00:32:24):
But you didn't necessarily get all of the support knowledge that gave you,...I don't know, the uber-foundation that I know actual engineers who do electronics and engineering get in school, if that makes any sense.
EW (00:32:41):
It does. I mean, you learned how to use the technology, not how to design the technology.
SP (00:32:47):
Yeah, it was.
EW (00:32:49):
Which, I mean, you're still putting it together in amazing ways. So to heck with how magnets turn into motors.
SP (00:32:59):
Yeah. We would get a little bit of the how and why things work, but it was really about manipulating what was out there and getting it to do the thing that you wanted.
SP (00:33:11):
And sometimes that involved beating your head over something that you didn't quite understand entirely, but if you got it to work, then that was what was important.
EW (00:33:21):
So when you signed up for this class, you had to say what you wanted to build at the end, in order to figure out if you would pass. By the way, my brain is so exploding over that idea, but let's just skip on past, and -
SP (00:33:32):
Okay.
EW (00:33:32):
- go to, what did you say you wanted to build? What was your goal then?
SP (00:33:37):
...So I mentioned earlier that the robot army was inspired by these illustrations I used to do, of people wading over incandescent light bulbs, fields of them. And I used to draw a lot of those, and I'm not really entirely sure where that came from.
SP (00:33:57):
But right around the time that I went to Chicago to go to that school, that's what I was drawing. So when I was presented with the challenge of building a mechanical thing, the first thing that popped into mind was building an actual incandescent light bulb flower that responded to human interaction in some way.
SP (00:34:23):
So I wanted to make the living light bulb flower, if you will. And the delta robot is kind of...the evolution. It evolved from the incandescent light bulb flower, if that makes any sense. It's a result of having built that original sculpture in that class.
EW (00:34:50):
And then it goes to the robot army, and then straight to NoodleFeet, or was there something in-between?
SP (00:34:56):
I built a lot of little things. I started toying around with making a robotic jellyfish, that was kind of inspired by the Festo's amazing robojelly, or jellybot, that they have, that can kind of undulate, and roam around in water, and recharge itself, and stuff.
SP (00:35:20):
And I've started a bunch of other projects since then, but Noodle's really the sole focus of, I don't know, he's my baby.
EW (00:35:35):
How do you learn the mechanical parts as someone who, I mean, the software, yeah, I do that in my day job. It's pretty easy. And the electronics, sure, I know enough to get by.
EW (00:35:51):
But sometimes the motor spins, and they're like, "Okay. And that's all you need to do to make it walk." And I'm like, "This is spinning, and walking is jointed." Where do you get that step from?
SP (00:36:09):
So the internet is amazing, for one, for a point of departure, I guess...I knew that Noodle had to look a certain way, right? That was my starting point. It wasn't merely making a robot that walked. It was a robot that walked, but it had to look this way.
SP (00:36:36):
And...Noodle's form dictated what sort of mechanical legs I looked up, and researched, and kind of decided I was going to go with. And I found the parallel, crossbar-type legs, I guess. I don't know what they're called technically, but the legs that Noodle has, I found robots that had appendages that moved like that.
SP (00:37:06):
And I downloaded this free program called Algodoo, which is basically...a 2D, you make shapes, you connect them with imaginary screws, and attach motors to them, and assign properties to the motors, and press go. And it applies physics to everything.
SP (00:37:25):
And you can watch everything either succeed or explode. But you can kind of roughly test out...different proportions of shapes, and different lengths of things, once connected, how they will move and react. So I was able to kind of get an idea if I was on the right track with that program.
SP (00:37:51):
And then, once I kind of got an idea what my proportions were going to be, I would draw everything out in illustrator and then make parts that I could 3D print. And Noodle..., more or less, he's like Popsicle sticks with screws in them, right?
SP (00:38:10):
They're flat, really basic stick shapes. And it was really just a matter of kind of figuring out what length everything needed to be, and then adding onto them. I think he has a spring that...helps take some of the load off of the motors in the back, which was an addition.
SP (00:38:33):
And I don't know, once I had the basic lengths and proportions of the bones, I added everything else to those, because that was the problem I had to solve first. And then as far as the gears and everything go, I had some help from people who had made gears before.
SP (00:38:57):
But I figured out what my proportions of gear teeth needed to be to one another to get them to turn the amount that I wanted. And then it was a matter of just exporting the flat DXF outline of gears. I think I used Woodgears.ca or something.
SP (00:39:16):
There's a gear generator online that you can use where you just type in the ratio gear teeth that you want. And then it will generate the vector DXF flat shape.
SP (00:39:30):
And you can bring that into CAD software, and then extrude that upwards, and figure out how you want to connect it to the gear shaft of your motors, and whatnot. And...I used that program to make his moving gear bits.
CW (00:39:47):
So could you do have done any of this before 3D printing became ubiquitous? Do you kind of depend on that? Or is it doable without? Yeah.
SP (00:39:56):
It really helps. It really helps...The first delta robot I ever made was made out of Tupperware, and hangers, and stuff. It was made out of stuff I had around the house and duct tape. And it totally worked, but it didn't look very pretty.
SP (00:40:15):
And on some level I had kind of come to terms with the fact that my robots were always going to be made out of garbage, because I didn't really have access to a machine shop at the time. And our hackerspace wasn't open, and it was very difficult.
SP (00:40:31):
But once the 3D printing element was introduced, it totally made life amazing. I want to say no.
SP (00:40:40):
Because...it's very important to be able to design the wrong thing, quickly, in 10 minute intervals of failure, over and over again, and then at the end of the day, having the working thing, than having every failure take 2 weeks, and $20, $30 between iterations.
SP (00:41:01):
I think I would give up if I had to do that every time I wanted to develop a system. 3D printing really, it's, yeah. I don't have to say that. You know.
EW (00:41:12):
We don't actually. We're still waiting -
SP (00:41:14):
No?
EW (00:41:14):
- for a 3D printer. Someday soon.
SP (00:41:16):
...For making things like Noodle, to be able to burn through many iterations of small parts in more complex systems, it's the most invaluable tool ever. We also...fulfilled our entire Kickstarter with our personal 3D printer. So we wouldn't have been able to do the small run production that we did without it.
EW (00:41:41):
What kind of 3D printer do you have?
SP (00:41:42):
...It's the Replicator 1, and it has the dual extrusion, and it's a beast.
EW (00:41:52):
It's a beast.
SP (00:41:54):
We printed over 7,000 parts on it during the year we were fulfilling our Kickstarter. And we didn't have any major problems with it at all, other than a couple clogs occasionally, but there's no major unsolvable issues.
EW (00:42:10):
That's always been what's held us back from getting 3D printers, is the fact that I always hear how temperamental they are, and that you basically have to babysit them. And it's never seemed worth it.
SP (00:42:25):
I've seen people who have had some of those really frustrating unsolvable problems, but we're kind of lucky in that it just didn't happen with ours. It's always just kind of behaved.
SP (00:42:41):
We're also lucky that, on the couple occasions that something weird did happen, there's a couple people at our hackerspace that either knew what the problem was from their experience, or they were just an expert in fixing 3D printers. So we had some help along the way. So we didn't get to that point of frustration with them.
EW (00:43:03):
The Replicator is the MakerBot. They make that one. Is that right?
SP (00:43:08):
Yes.
EW (00:43:09):
How much was it if you don't mind me asking?
SP (00:43:12):
...It's Mark's, but I think he paid 2,000 for it at the time. It was the dual extrusion one though. So it probably costs slightly more than the standard single extruder one. I'm not quite sure.
EW (00:43:30):
Well, and mostly I hear bad things about the ones that cost under $500. And yet that information is a couple years old. I don't know right now. Maybe it's time. The whole money thing. How do you make a living as an artist?
SP (00:43:49):
I don't make a ton of money as an artist. I make enough money from project to project to continue funding further projects. The thing that kind of happened as a by-product of doing the Kickstarter is, Mark and I ended up with this company that we have now.
SP (00:44:13):
And we use it to kind of market the things that we create as products, and push them out into the world, and promote what we do. And then with the money we make, we use that for the development of our art and the next product that we're going to add to our store.
SP (00:44:34):
So we kind of have this dual art collective, company, sort of business identity, business model, going on. And we aren't really necessarily making a lot of money yet. But the thing about us being artists is...we can apply for grants and residencies. And we can apply to go to conventions, and fairs, and stuff like Maker Faire.
SP (00:45:06):
And since we do have the big art installation now, that's sort of our ticket to really cool places. So yeah.
EW (00:45:15):
What's the name of your store?
SP (00:45:17):
We don't have a store. We just have our business. It's Robot Army LLC. So robot-army.com is our storefront, and that's where we promote the things that we create and sell.
EW (00:45:35):
And you have instructions for building there and all sorts of stuff. Okay. Well, we'll make sure that's in the show notes. It is difficult to make a living as an artist, at least from what I've heard.
EW (00:45:50):
In this diversification of doing the webcomic, and Kickstarters, and selling parts,...it seems very necessary. Does it lessen your enjoyment of the whole thing, or is that part of it?
SP (00:46:08):
I think it's all super exciting. I've never done any of this before, so...it's coming at me in a big wave, and I'm just trying to stay on top of it. But for the most part, we have control over everything that we do.
SP (00:46:26):
So even the really mundane, crappy, miserable parts are exciting, and happy, and filled with some joy, because it's our robots that we're shipping out. It's our gigs that we're setting up for. It's fun. We're building a brand, we're building kind of our own universe, and there is a lot of joy in that.
EW (00:46:51):
Yeah. I can see that. What's a work day in your life like?
SP (00:46:57):
On the days that I just work on robot and Sarah stuff, I more or less will start out every morning drawing. Because I think drawing is the most important thing in the world, but that's just me. I will work on either drawing my comic, or making some sort of promotional imagery for our company till about noon.
SP (00:47:20):
And then I will literally work on robot stuff until I'm too tired to keep my eyes open, but I love it. So it doesn't bother me. And then the necessary breaks in-between to eat and whatnot , of course.
EW (00:47:38):
And do you have to have another job to support this, or are you sort of in that position where you're able to do this most days?
SP (00:47:44):
...I will do freelance graphic design work, and I'll do illustrations when I need it, but only when I need to get the money to keep the life going. But otherwise I try to keep my head down and work on our stuff. Because that's...leading somewhere, right?
EW (00:48:10):
Yeah. Because it's yours, and sometimes you have to mine salt to stay afloat, but -
SP (00:48:17):
Yeah.
EW (00:48:18):
- you don't have to mine so much salt that you're drowning in it. Might as well have some fun with that. Make some margaritas.
SP (00:48:26):
I agree.
CW (00:48:26):
Wow, that was a really tortured metaphor.
EW (00:48:27):
...I could go so much further.
SP (00:48:31):
But it ended with margaritas.
EW (00:48:32):
Exactly.
SP (00:48:32):
So that's all that matters.
EW (00:48:36):
You hinted to me that you have a new art project. What can you tell me?
SP (00:48:40):
So on my desk, on my bench, I have a bunch of objects that I've kind of collected from random places over the years. And one of the newer residents has been this pink flamingo lawn ornament that I've come to call Carl.
SP (00:49:04):
And...everything that's in the workroom eventually becomes either electronic or robotic in some sense, it's just, that's what's going to happen. And I knew that I wanted to do something with Carl's legs. Because he had these really miserable wire post legs, because he was meant to be stuck in the ground someplace.
SP (00:49:30):
And it was bugging me. I wanted to give him some sort of new and improved appendages. So I whacked off his legs, and I gave him a rod that balances on a ball. So he's now a balancing robot.
EW (00:49:48):
Inverted pendulum style.
SP (00:49:50):
Yeah. So he has the three motors, and...I am having his brain made at the moment. So I'm waiting for that to come in. So he's not technically balancing yet. He's in progress.
SP (00:50:04):
But he has the pretty, I want to call it a chicken foot, his Omni wheels and motors that sort of grip onto the ball, and will be responsible for keeping him balancing. It looks kind of like a bird foot, I think. I'm going to call it that.
SP (00:50:23):
It's a little chicken foot that grips onto the pink ball, and he will be the coolest robot flamingo ever. And I have other plans for him in the future. I think...he's going to be at the heart of one of our next art installations. It's going to involve many pink things. I'll say that.
EW (00:50:47):
I know that you're based in Vegas, and please tell me you're going to take a picture of him outside the Flamingo Hotel.
SP (00:50:55):
Yes. I have to.
EW (00:50:56):
I really think you do.
SP (00:50:58):
Yes. I totally agree. I don't know how that would work, but we'll figure it out. That might be a hackerspace project. We can just flamingo bomb the Flamingo. Everyone can bring a flamingo, and then slap it down on the strip.
SP (00:51:16):
And then we can pull out our cameras, and film what happens. And then be out of there in another couple minutes, everyone grabs a flamingo and takes off.
EW (00:51:26):
Yeah. Yeah. Let us know on Twitter when that's going to happen, because that would be awesome.
SP (00:51:31):
Yeah.
EW (00:51:31):
Really.
SP (00:51:32):
Yes.
EW (00:51:35):
What is it called when you do that? Flash mob? Flash mob.
CW (00:51:38):
[Affirmative]. Yeah.
SP (00:51:39):
Yeah.
EW (00:51:39):
Okay.
SP (00:51:39):
Flash mob. What did I say? Did I say photobomb or something? I don't know. Flash mob what I meant.
CW (00:51:43):
I think you said flamingo bomb, which is better.
EW (00:51:45):
Yeah. Really. Flamingo bomb is the way to go.
SP (00:51:48):
Flamingo bomb. Deal.
EW (00:51:53):
Alright.
SP (00:51:53):
I will let you know when that happens.
EW (00:51:56):
Controlling a ball robot, an inverted pendulum ball robot, it's non-trivial math wise. Are you looking at an off-the-shelf controller? Are you writing the software yourself? I thought you went into art instead of engineering, because you didn't like math.
SP (00:52:15):
So I love...building the mechanical things, the moving parts, the physical stuff. I know very, very, very little about writing code. So Mark, my collaborator, he does the majority of the code development, and he's very, very good at it.
SP (00:52:35):
So I designed his brain, the board that will be responsible for running the motors and doing the maths. And once that comes in he's going to write the code, more than likely. So I don't do every aspect of all over projects. God,...no.
SP (00:53:01):
I'm trying to learn what he knows, but there are just some things that are way, way, way above my head, and things that involve delta math, and writing code with the delta math involved,...I'm not there yet. So I do have help, to answer your question.
EW (00:53:22):
Well, and Mark has been part of your art projects for awhile. I mean, he was involved with Robot Army, and building it, and...I mean, when you build 100 of something, it's not trivial to get them all similar.
SP (00:53:35):
He's my partner. Our group, Robot Army, the thing is the two of us. So it's our company. We compliment each other very well. He has 20 plus years of experience as a circuit board designer, and...he designs the final revision of our boards for our projects, and he writes all of the code.
SP (00:54:05):
And that's his area of expertise. And then we both will decide on kind of the art direction, the overall vision for an installation or a project, together. And I will design the mechanical, the physical-designed object itself I will do. And then I make all of the propaganda, because I like to draw.
SP (00:54:29):
And I like to kind of tell the story of what we're doing through the imagery, the cartoons, and the comics, and the postcards that we make. Because that's a huge part of it. It's very important.
CW (00:54:45):
I really like the idea of having a backstory for your artifacts. I think everything should have a backstory.
EW (00:54:48):
I love, yes -
SP (00:54:52):
Yeah...It's a story. It's as valid of a story as anything right? It's fun...The archiving of it in that way feels really good when we go back, and we look at it. And kind of, I don't know, read it like a comic, I guess, if that make any sense.
EW (00:55:12):
Lambs are mammals, and crabs are born out of -
CW (00:55:17):
We're back to this again?
EW (00:55:17):
- eggs. I'm totally back to this. I am designing NoodleFeet's Pelican case as a giant egg right now in my head. It will be awesome. He'll have little friends in there, and little buddies, and a little tiny teddy bear, but probably mechanically. Sorry, this is your art project. I should find my own.
SP (00:55:39):
No, no...It's not just the robot. It's all the stuff...It's all about the Noodle. I've thought of the same thing though...I brought him to Supercon last fall, and it was the first time I ever took a mechanical thing through the airport like that.
EW (00:55:58):
[Ah], yeah. That's fun, isn't it? Wondering if they're going to stop you. Hoping they don't.
SP (00:56:03):
Yes.
EW (00:56:03):
Wondering why they didn't. Yeah.
SP (00:56:06):
Yes.
EW (00:56:06):
I've been there.
SP (00:56:08):
Alright. You totally know then. And yeah,...the whole time I was on the plane, I was thinking of making a custom carrying case for him that looked like a little rocket ship with the little portal window on the front -
EW (00:56:23):
Yes.
SP (00:56:23):
- that he could kind of peek out.
EW (00:56:26):
And I really think he might need a small stuffed animal.
SP (00:56:30):
Yes.
EW (00:56:30):
Just because he might get scared.
SP (00:56:34):
It should be a lamb-crab. [Inaudible].
CW (00:56:39):
So you had mentioned earlier in the show, when we did the lightning round, you chose introvert instead of extrovert.
SP (00:56:47):
Yes.
CW (00:56:48):
And I know a lot of artists also would probably choose that. How do you square that with having to be self-promoting, and go to conferences, and engage with people...It seems like, to be an artist is to be inward-focused, and yet to be successful, you have to be outward-focused.
SP (00:57:09):
It's awful...I understand that I have to do the promoting bit. I get it, and it's easy to do social media and hide behind my computer. And I've gotten kind of good at coaxing myself to do that. And I like to do that part, and I hate doing the talking bit. I don't know if I'm answering your question. I hate it.
SP (00:57:39):
I guess that's the quick and easy answer, but I'm getting better at it, and I want to get better at it. Because I recognize how important it is to kind of...to be aware of who else is doing stuff like you, so that you can learn from them and kind of be part of the same dialogue as they are. And I don't know, it's important.
CW (00:58:04):
Do you think you'll ever not hate it?
SP (00:58:06):
I am not sure...I think experience will help with the talking about ideas in public. I don't know if I'm ever going to necessarily get over the talking on stage to a bunch of quiet, silent people thing. That's I think always going to be intimidating, but I don't know. I might get better at it. I'll still hate it though.
EW (00:58:34):
The talking on stage part, that part gets easy. That part gets much easier with practice.
SP (00:58:42):
I hope.
EW (00:58:45):
The conversations before and after have never gotten easier for me.
SP (00:58:51):
What is it about them that you say continues to be difficult?
EW (00:59:00):
Talking to a group of strangers, breaking into conversations, not knowing when it's okay to talk about myself...I mean, I'm usually at conferences to talk about the podcast.
SP (00:59:17):
Yeah.
EW (00:59:17):
And yet I don't want to be this advertising dork. And yet if I'm at this conference, these are my people. They probably do want to know about the podcast, or about my book, or something. And I really am interested in them, because I am always trolling for people to be on the podcast. So I am truly interested.
EW (00:59:37):
And usually once we get past the hellos, I'm interested for other reasons. But it's still that, "These two people are talking, they seem to be talking to each other and amusing themselves. I can't possibly go up and interrupt them."
EW (00:59:53):
And if I do manage to interrupt them, "Hi, my name is Elecia. Can I stop talking now? Please don't look at me." Totally hits me, that fierce shyness.
SP (01:00:05):
I totally agree. I hear that. I relate 100%.
EW (01:00:11):
It helps to take a wing person. Someone else you know.
CW (01:00:16):
A wing noodle.
EW (01:00:17):
A wing noodle. Yes.
SP (01:00:18):
I like that.
EW (01:00:20):
And actually, having Bring-A-Hack at Maker Faire, having something you're holding that you built, really helps break ice. Because people will come talk to you, and then you don't necessarily have to break into their conversations.
SP (01:00:36):
This is true. Yeah. Conversation starter.
EW (01:00:40):
I have this enormous ring that gives me words and definitions when I tap it, or will play magic eight ball with me, or even pong. And that helps. Because I sometimes will go away and sort of play with it instead of engaging with people. Because...it calms me down.
EW (01:01:02):
And then somebody invariably says, "What the hell is that?" And I say, "Well, here it is." And -
SP (01:01:07):
And then the conversation's begun.
EW (01:01:09):
Yeah. And I don't know how to end conversations either. It's like, "Well, buh-bye, I'm going over here."
SP (01:01:20):
Yeah.
EW (01:01:21):
Yeah. There are a lot of people nodding right now. They're like, "This is what introverts are."
SP (01:01:27):
Yes. Yes. The social awkwardness is real.
EW (01:01:31):
And then we try to be extroverts. And sometimes a lot of people I know succeed very well, even I succeed sometimes, but it's a lot more exhausting.
SP (01:01:41):
...I do this horrible thing where if I feel like I did the extrovert thing, I'll replay whatever I said 1000 times in my head the next day, and then try to try to imagine how it was perceived by the other person hearing me.
EW (01:01:58):
Yes.
SP (01:02:00):
Which is crazy, right?
CW (01:02:00):
And of course, they've already moved on. I know this.
SP (01:02:06):
Yeah.
EW (01:02:06):
They don't even remember you. Yes.
SP (01:02:06):
Yeah.
EW (01:02:06):
But yes.
SP (01:02:07):
But you do it anyway, and you realize, it's like balancing an equation, right? You're doing the conversation equation, and you're trying to solve for all the x's, and it's awful. Why do we do that to ourselves?
EW (01:02:22):
Well, one reason is that there is a huge, huge amount of studies that show people are happier when they're with other people, when they're meeting people, and when they're talking to other people.
EW (01:02:34):
And so if we all just hang out in this really lovely room that we're in, it's not as good as if you go out and meet somebody. And I think some part of us knows that's true, as much as we don't want it to be true.
CW (01:02:51):
I think those studies were selecting for extroverts.
EW (01:02:55):
I don't think so.
SP (01:02:58):
I fantasize about being more social, because I think you're right. Deep down, I feel like that's the thing my life is lacking. But it's really difficult to balance, I think, the social and the productive portion of life. Those are the two elements I think that are most at odds with each other.
SP (01:03:19):
Because the more social portions of my life have been these creative dead zones, or I don't really focus on anything. And then I get really unhappy. But for the other reason, because I'm not producing things.
SP (01:03:36):
And yeah, at other periods of my life, I'll go in the opposite direction. And I put my head down so much that people forget who I am, and I'm -
EW (01:03:45):
Yeah.
SP (01:03:45):
- gone. So -
EW (01:03:47):
Exactly.
SP (01:03:48):
Yeah.
EW (01:03:50):
[Ah], sigh. Well, if we're ever at a conference together, you can always come up and say hello, and I will be happy to see you.
SP (01:03:58):
Totally. I would love that. We can have a beer and take a load off of all of the social introvert whatever. Offset the -
EW (01:04:08):
And Noodle can totally lick my leg.
SP (01:04:11):
Oh, can he? He would love that.
EW (01:04:15):
Chris is not thrilled with this idea.
SP (01:04:17):
Oh, can he lick your leg too, Chris, if I ever see you? Will you embrace Noodle into your heart?
CW (01:04:26):
I can get past the introvert part, but I'm not sure about the germaphobe part. So we'll have to -
SP (01:04:30):
It'll be clean water. In fact, I was thinking of using hand sanitary -
CW (01:04:34):
[Laughter]. Hand sanitizer.
SP (01:04:34):
- in there.
EW (01:04:39):
That's awesome.
CW (01:04:39):
Alright.
SP (01:04:41):
So you don't have to worry about that.
EW (01:04:44):
If she uses hand sanitizer, you can ask Noodle to lick all of your hands.
CW (01:04:48):
Right.
SP (01:04:48):
Yes.
CW (01:04:51):
Let's move on.
EW (01:04:55):
Alright. Alright. Your blog includes a lot of explanation and instructions. And...you mentioned earlier about how illustration..., well, I was sort of summarizing it in my head, is worth 1000 words. You...can pack a lot more information in. Why is that important to you?
SP (01:05:18):
A lot of it goes back to the story, the creation of the identity, and the story behind something...
SP (01:05:26):
For me, I hate using the word, but it's totally accurate, if you create the propaganda to support a vibe or a feel, or I'll just say an overall idea surrounding your work, and you support that with imagery, I mean, it's the same thing as branding in essence.
SP (01:05:51):
You're, in a sense, branding your process, and your image, and your style, and why you do what you do. And for me, to kind of develop the story of Noodle, and the army, and me and Mark at work, doing our thing, and how we felt at certain events.
SP (01:06:13):
And to kind of draw us slumped over our computers the next day, because we had been bombarded by small children at the event the day before, to kind of document that moment in history in an illustration...
SP (01:06:28):
It's a digestible piece of information that people can look at and immediately relate to, but it also helps kind of solidify that universe that I'm trying to create.
SP (01:06:42):
And...I think it's crucial in a sense, because without the imagery, without the illustrations, I could try to do that with just the robots. But there's something so accessible and exciting about seeing the world come to life in a comic illustrative form, that for what I do, it's 50% of it.
SP (01:07:07):
So it doesn't really take away from the building of the robots. It helps make it more, it makes it what it needs to be. It's 50% of it.
EW (01:07:22):
That's a great answer. I mean, that it isn't taking away. So yeah. I get that. Oh, I don't know where else to go. I mean, I still have lots and lots of questions, but we have really hit so many things. Is there anything else you'd like to talk more about?
SP (01:07:44):
I have a question for you.
EW (01:07:46):
Sure.
SP (01:07:47):
Both of you actually. What are your favorite types of robots?
EW (01:07:54):
I've seen a couple of these ones with the soft bodies, and they move around like little worms usually. And I have in my head an idea that revolves around that. But also having sort of like Noodle's toes, where they can come out and are almost claw-like, but extend from the soft body to have some rigid body effects as well.
EW (01:08:24):
And I know they've done the little snakes that go through buildings for search and rescue purposes. I'm fascinated by that, and soft bodies, and yeah. Okay. Chris doesn't like this. What is your favorite robot?
SP (01:08:36):
[Aww].
CW (01:08:36):
I like anything with autonomy. So things that can explore on their own or have behaviors...I'm not really big on remote-controlled things. That doesn't seem like a robot to me, but -
EW (01:08:49):
Right, because you listen to the Siracusa -
CW (01:08:52):
Well -
EW (01:08:52):
- "Robot or Not?"
CW (01:08:53):
Not just that, but I just like the idea of something with its own personality and emergent behavior. So it doesn't matter necessarily what its form is, although...the cooler the form, the better. But yeah, I just like things that know how to do things.
SP (01:09:06):
Sure.
EW (01:09:08):
That's part of the emergent behavior part.
CW (01:09:10):
Yeah.
EW (01:09:11):
Explain emergent behavior.
CW (01:09:12):
Things that do things that you didn't expect when you created them.
EW (01:09:15):
Sort of like Conway's "Game of Life" has very few rules, and yet if you do the rules, you end up with weapons that shoot things, and -
CW (01:09:24):
Little sliding creatures.
EW (01:09:25):
Sliding creatures.
CW (01:09:25):
Not necessarily that, but just, I want to be surprised by things I create, or things that other people create.
SP (01:09:33):
Yeah.
EW (01:09:33):
...It's exactly that attitude that lost us the robot war.
CW (01:09:38):
That hasn't happened yet.
EW (01:09:38):
Right, right. Oh, I forgot. I want to be surprised. Sure. It can only be good. Alright. I think maybe that's it, unless you have other questions for us. Christopher, do you have any more questions?
CW (01:09:55):
I wanted to know if she'd seen the Boston Dynamics robots.
SP (01:09:58):
Yeah.
CW (01:09:59):
Are you as terrified of them as we are?
Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
...I'm probably afraid of one falling on me, but that's about it. I think that I am afraid of them in the sense that anytime I see one, it's being abused.
CW (01:10:15):
Yes.
EW (01:10:16):
Yes.
SP (01:10:16):
I mean -
CW (01:10:17):
Which seems like the wrong way to go about it.
SP (01:10:19):
Yeah. They're like, "Why would robots ever want to take over one day?" It's like, "Well, that's why. We beat them with - "
CW (01:10:25):
Sticks.
SP (01:10:26):
- sticks and stuff." It's like, come on. I don't know. I would never, even if I was testing it, I wouldn't take a hockey stick and, it just seems rude. It's the reason why I can't call my robots "it." It's...rude, right? I mean, my robots are non-gender, but he is so much more personal than it.
SP (01:10:46):
And even if I was testing whether or not it could balance, I would probably, I don't know what I would do. I wouldn't use a hockey stick though.
EW (01:10:54):
You ram them with hugs.
SP (01:10:56):
I don't know. I don't know what I would do.
CW (01:10:59):
Have you seen the video where somebody overdubbed screaming over it?
SP (01:11:02):
Yes.
CW (01:11:03):
Yes.
SP (01:11:05):
Yes. Nightmares. Poor robots. They need somebody to hug them afterwards, so there's some good with the bad? I don't know.
EW (01:11:17):
Actually, that would be a really good addition to those videos. It's not only the -
CW (01:11:21):
We're sorry. We didn't mean it.
SP (01:11:23):
Yes.
EW (01:11:23):
Well, no -
SP (01:11:23):
...Yeah.
EW (01:11:25):
You have to have a lot of fine motor control to be able to hug a human and not hurt them if you're a robot, I think. Not that I would know.
SP (01:11:36):
I wouldn't want to be hugged by a KUKA robot, not that it could hug you. But those ones, it would be interesting to, I don't know. Would you hug a robot if someone walked up to you, and said, "Hey, I programmed this thing to hug humans?" Would you do it?
CW (01:11:52):
I don't know. You're asking us to let your robot lick our legs, so -
EW (01:11:57):
[Laughter]. Yeah, not -
SP (01:11:57):
[Oh].
CW (01:11:57):
It's not that far off.
SP (01:12:01):
Well, I don't know. Licking is a lot less threatening than hugging. That's a squeezing, embracing, matter of coordination, and strength, and control of strength. Licking is just kind of, "Well, how wet are you going to get?" I mean, that's all you're risking at that point.
CW (01:12:22):
That's true.
EW (01:12:22):
This episode has so many show titles. But I think that was one of the things Big Hero 6 got right, because they had the soft robot. And they made him soft, because he was interacting with humans. And they didn't want him to seem threatening.
SP (01:12:44):
I haven't seen that movie and I feel like such a heel.
EW (01:12:47):
Oh, you should. You totally should. You'll love it. It's not Harry Potter. It's not Star Wars. It is totally different. And I think as a roboticist and as an artist, you should really see that movie.
EW (01:13:02):
Forget the plot. Just look at all the robots.
SP (01:13:05):
Alright.
EW (01:13:05):
I mean, the plot was good. I actually liked the plot, but you can skip the plot and just gaze at the wonder of the amazing robots.
SP (01:13:12):
I totally will. It's on my list. Mark and I actually have a list of sci-fi movies that we need to catch up on, because we're bad. And the only one that has been on it that we watched recently was the Ex Machina movie, which I loved. But Big Hero 6 and I think Chappie are both on there. And I haven't seen either.
EW (01:13:33):
[Ooo], Chappie is still on our list. We haven't seen that one.
SP (01:13:36):
Chappie. I'll be honest -
EW (01:13:37):
[Ah] -
SP (01:13:38):
Oh, go on. Sorry.
EW (01:13:39):
Christopher's giving me the, "You guys have devolved into randomness," looks. So I guess I should ask you if you have any final thoughts. And we should go get beer, and dinner, and all of those things.
SP (01:13:55):
Deal. I think as final thoughts, I guess I'll just repeat my mantra, which is what I believe in. Don't let not knowing how to do something keep you from doing it. Do it anyway. And that's it.
EW (01:14:13):
That's pretty good. That is pretty darn good. Alright. My guest has been Sarah Petkus, kinetic artist, webcomic author of Gravity Road, and robot cuddle commander.
EW (01:14:27):
You can find a number of her endeavors? Art projects? I'm not quite sure what to call them, but Zoness.com. Z-O-N-E-S-S dot com. Or you can check out robot-army.com in order to get kits, and to find out more about the army, and its upcoming locations. Thank you, Sarah, for joining us. It's been great to talk to you.
SP (01:14:52):
Thank you for having me. This has been awesome.
EW (01:14:55):
Thank you also to Christopher for co-hosting and producing. And, of course, thank you for listening. Hit the contact link on embedded.fm if you'd like to say hello. Or email us, show@embedded.fm.
EW (01:15:07):
And please do check out our blog. We're working hard on it. And I think you might like it. We'll be here next week. In the meantime, a final thought to leave you with. This one's from Neil Gaiman.
EW (01:15:20):
"May your coming year be filled with magic and dreams and good madness. I hope you read some fine books and kiss someone who thinks you're wonderful, and don't forget to make some art -- write or draw or build or sing or live as only you can. And I hope, somewhere in the next year, you surprise yourself."
EW (01:15:41):
embedded.fm is an independently produced radio show that focuses on the many aspects of engineering. It is a production of Logical Elegance, an embedded software consulting company in California.
EW (01:15:52):
If there are advertisements in the show, we did not put them there, and do not receive any revenue from them. At this time, our sole sponsor remains Logical Elegance.