Transcript from 394: Being Four-Year-Olds with HyunJoo Oh, Elecia White, and Christopher White.

EW (00:06):

Welcome to Embedded. I am Elecia White, alongside Christopher White. You may have heard about my origami obsession. So when I heard about a professor doing paper machines, imagine what I imagined. I am so pleased to have Professor HyunJoo Oh from Georgia Tech here to talk to us.

CW (00:31):

Hi, HyunJoo.

HJO (00:31):

Hello.

EW (00:34):

Could you tell us about yourself as if we met at a paper craft conference?

CW (00:42):

Do they have those?

EW (00:42):

Yes, of course they do.

CW (00:43):

Okay.

HJO (00:45):

Sure. Hi, everyone. I'm HyunJoo. I'm a designer, engineer, and/or maker. And I'm also an assistant professor working at Georgia Tech and leading CoDe Craft research group.

HJO (01:04):

My group works on developing computational design tools and methods that support integrating computing with everyday craft materials, including, of course, paper. Does this sound like enough?

EW (01:23):

Yes.

HJO (01:23):

I could go on and on, but let's stop here.

EW (01:25):

Well, we have more to talk about. But before we do that, we want to do lightning round, where we ask you short questions, and we're hoping for short answers. And if we're behaving ourselves, we won't ask, "How?" and, "Why?" and, "Are you sure?" Are you ready?

HJO (01:43):

Yep, I'm ready.

CW (01:44):

What is your favorite kind of paper?

HJO (01:46):

Ooo, copy paper.

CW (01:51):

Really?

HJO (01:53):

Yep. Cheap one. The cheaper, the better.

EW (01:55):

And everybody has it.

HJO (01:58):

Yep.

EW (01:58):

Do you have a favorite small motor?

HJO (02:02):

I have that everywhere, but I don't know where it was really from. I would just say, same thing, the cheaper, the better.

CW (02:21):

Do you like to complete one project or start a dozen?

HJO (02:25):

Oh, start one project and complete one project. Absolutely.

EW (02:29):

If you wrote a book, what would it be about?

HJO (02:33):

Designing for curiosity.

EW (02:36):

Ooo, that's a great title.

HJO (02:39):

That's actually a title of a course I'm teaching at Georgia Tech.

CW (02:45):

Do you have a favorite mechanical mechanism? I guess that's redundant. Do you have a favorite mechanism?

HJO (02:52):

Should I pick just one?

CW (02:56):

You can pick as many as you like.

HJO (02:59):

I guess I have such affection to all sorts of mechanical movement. My favorite one would be rack and pinion. Yeah.

EW (03:12):

Do you have a favorite paper craft sensor?

HJO (03:17):

Because it's related to my field of study, I guess the question can be really unfolded in multiple dimensions. I would say, as long as I can read all sorts of behaviors with paper, I just love them all.

EW (03:36):

Well, I mean, to be fair, I asked you the question partially because you have this fantastic new project out where you talk about how to build an analog flex sensor, an analog potentiometer, a digital contact, capacitive touch, and analog pressure.

EW (03:53):

And I was just like, "You can do all of that with copper tape and paper?"

HJO (03:58):

Yep. Yep.

EW (03:58):

You don't have a favorite one of those?

HJO (04:01):

If I pick just one out of those, a bend sensor, made of kind of inkjet printer with silver ink that we can just print out on kind of photo paper, and then we can transfer what's printed on paper using tape. And then complete that with circuitry to read any form of deformation, including bending.

EW (04:35):

Okay. So there were so many things in there.

CW (04:42):

Lightning round is over.

HJO (04:42):

I know. I know.

EW (04:42):

Yeah, it was obviously over. Okay. So silver ink in inkjet printers?

HJO (04:50):

Yes. Silver nanoparticle ink. Yes. We can use any sort of kind of inkjet printer, but instead of putting color ink, we can kind of put those silver nanoparticle ink. It's not what...my group invented. This is one of the techniques used in DIY and HCI community.

HJO (05:20):

Yeah, it kind of used the commodity tool, like inkjet printer, that we kind of add silver ink.

EW (05:28):

Are there cartridges of silver ink, or do I have to do something -

CW (05:31):

Probably cheaper than normal ink. I'm kidding.

HJO (05:35):

Yeah. To be fair, silver ink is not really cheap, I should say.

CW (05:44):

Yeah.

HJO (05:44):

It's silver. But let's say, I guess one bottle of that was about 150-ish dollars, at least in our experiment recently. Yeah. So it's absolutely more expensive than the basic color cartridge, but yeah, it's in the market.

EW (06:07):

And it works in the inkjet printers?

HJO (06:11):

It does. It works with -

EW (06:13):

That's just -

HJO (06:13):

- any inkjet printer.

EW (06:16):

I mean, I have conductive pens, so that part's not that incredible to me. It's the inkjet printer part, because they used to be so fussy. Okay. I'm showing my age here, but gosh, I remember when inkjets, you couldn't put anything in them that didn't belong or they just destroyed themselves.

CW (06:36):

I think that's still true.

HJO (06:39):

Yep. That's still true. And now, here, I guess when I picked the bend sensor, specifically, I mentioned transferring it using tape, right? So now,...once we transfer the printed traces, the conductive traces, we can place it on top of a variety of objects or materials, right?

HJO (07:09):

That means we can kind of start embedding circuitry onto those kind of everyday objects. So that's kind of the context we wanted to kind of explore when we looked into using that inkjet printer with the silver ink technique with tape. And, yeah. Bending sensor is one of those.

EW (07:34):

And so I am just printing onto normal copy paper,...and then I tape onto the copy paper? How does the tape come into it?

HJO (07:44):

Oh, let me clarify. So...once we kind of print out circuitry, it needs some centering process...To shorten the path, we can use photo paper,...glossy ones that has little bit of a sticky texture on top of that. So we need to use photo paper first of all, instead of copy paper.

EW (08:21):

Not copy paper. Okay.

HJO (08:23):

And then we can use any tape. In our experiment we used 3M tapes. Under the 3M tape, there are a variety of tapes that we can use. Some of the tapes are water-soluble, some of the tapes are heat-resistant tapes, right?

HJO (08:45):

And anyway, using those tapes, we can transfer what's printed on those in a photo paper to the tape and then move it to somewhere else.

EW (08:59):

This is a pretty specialized process. Can I also do this with copper tape myself, or do I need to have an inkjet that I'm willing to put silver ink in?

HJO (09:11):

Actually, copper tape, if we have copper tape, we can just use the tape to any separate places, any other materials, so I guess that's cool as it is.

HJO (09:28):

When I talk about, I guess, the transferring technique, specifically I imagine contexts like making circuitry a bit more complex shape or on top of a base transparent in a surface, such as window.

EW (09:49):

Ooo.

HJO (09:49):

Yeah, those are kind of the contexts where we want to apply those tape-based methods.

EW (09:57):

Okay. So let's just skip to my project and what I want from these.

CW (10:03):

We haven't even established what we're talking about.

EW (10:06):

Haven't we?

CW (10:06):

No, no.

EW (10:08):

Paper.

CW (10:08):

We got stuck in lightning round and sensors. I think...we started several levels deep in the stack.

EW (10:15):

No, no, we're heading this direction.

CW (10:18):

Okay. It's your show.

EW (10:27):

Okay. So I do origami, and there's a special kind of origami from Tomoko Fuse's book "Spirals." And they're coils. And they're remarkably like paper springs. They're very fun to play with. If I leave them around the house, Christopher just picks them up and then can't do anything else.

EW (10:48):

And when Chris and I judged the 2021 Maker Music Festival, we got to thinking about something with these coils, that you could mash them down, and then you'd get a tone and intensity, depending on how far it was depressed.

EW (11:03):

And I can make different coils that would have different tones in sizes and colors, and even springiness, because I can control that with the paper. So how can I make my music thing?

HJO (11:18):

Are you asking me?

EW (11:23):

Yeah, I mean, okay, so the paper ends up being kind of helical. When it's flat, I can put copper tape on it. Maybe I can print something or use a plotter to use conductive ink in a pen, and I can print out one of the sensors that you have described...

EW (11:44):

I suppose I can fold one, and then unfold one, and then draw where things are, but how do I decide which sensor to use to build things? See, I was going somewhere. It wasn't a totally random question. I was headed somewhere.

HJO (12:05):

I can imagine a variety of really fun interactions of what you described. Let's imagine...the musical instrument that we kind of compress and release to make a melody out of that. Accordion?

CW (12:27):

Yeah. A very accordion-like paper. Yeah.

HJO (12:29):

Yeah, something like that.

CW (12:31):

Yeah.

HJO (12:31):

So, in that case,...by doing the action, we just need to read,...what's it, the deformation -

CW (12:41):

Yes.

HJO (12:41):

- level and the overall...action, right? So all the possibilities you described, applying conductive pen or tape, we can read those actions by looking at the deformation level, because all of those conductive materials, in other words, those are electrically-resistive materials so that we can read all those deformation level out of them, right?

HJO (13:16):

So I can imagine that kind of musical instrument and also the other side of that, if you want to think about it more, kind of distinctive kind of melody out of...all of those paper sculpture, I guess, there are many projects, really cool project making a lot of... like a piano kind of instrument.

HJO (13:44):

People print them out on the wall or make it as a giant installation. And we can draw all of those instrument. And at the same time, those drawing function just like piano, right? Or violin, I suppose. In this case, we are kind of reading where we are pressing it, right?

HJO (14:08):

So each of those kind of work just like a pressure or a push button. And at the same time, we kind of need to then think about output...Yeah. That's kind of the different side of the question, I guess.

EW (14:27):

That is a harder side of the question to me, because -

CW (14:29):

The output side? I think of that as the easy side, because that's just software.

EW (14:33):

Well, I mean, you probably put it into an analog input.

CW (14:37):

Yeah. Yeah.

EW (14:38):

Because even the ones that are push button may not be over the threshold.

CW (14:43):

So all of these end up working kind of like potentiometers or variable capacitors?

HJO (14:51):

Yeah. Any of those.

CW (14:53):

Yeah. Most of the sensors, you're reading one of those properties, right?

EW (14:58):

Well, in this page I have up that nobody else can see, HyunJoo has this...organization of different sensors so that if you want to make a capacitive sensor, a capacitive touch sensor, it's square. And...you touch in the center of the square.

CW (15:18):

Oh, okay.

EW (15:19):

But if you want to make a analog pressure one, you have copper tape that zigzags with another piece of copper tape. And that does a pressure in the direction you are -

CW (15:34):

Okay.

EW (15:34):

- perpendicular to the plane of the zigzags of the tape.

CW (15:38):

Okay.

EW (15:39):

And so that lets you detect pressure. And then she's got one up here that's about the analog flex. But I'm not going to describe it, because it's a very visual thing, and I've been told that that isn't appropriate for a podcast.

EW (15:55):

You have these five sensors that I mentioned earlier...Are these the only ones I can make out of paper?...I mean, is it just you put it on paper, and it works?

HJO (16:11):

Yeah, I suppose. But let me really start from kind of a higher level.

EW (16:19):

What? You want to start from the beginning?

CW (16:20):

Yes, please.

HJO (16:24):

No. What I'm saying is that the whole techniques that we have used to make each of those sensors, I wouldn't really claim....my team invented all of those. It's really existing technique.

HJO (16:44):

And...our focus was really making it more accessible and available, specifically for the...craft-based learning context for middle school use in that project.

HJO (17:03):

So what we did was looking at what's available techniques already in the field, and see how we can make those more understandable form, and how we can make a kit of those kind of paper cards' templates with craft-friendly conductive and non-conductive materials and parts to support educators for inclusive CS education.

HJO (17:38):

So using the kit, students can make their own sensors and then adapt those sensors into their creative project, whatever they want to work on. Does it make sense?

EW (17:52):

Yes, of course. I mean, I kind of knew you didn't invent the sensors. But you're applying them in such an interesting way that makes it feel like I can understand the sensor in a way that I've never been able to understand it when I just buy something.

HJO (18:10):

Thank you. I mean, I guess, the transparency was the key.

HJO (18:14):

And we wanted to really start from, even if the process would mean lowering the performance, of course because it's not really optimized form, maybe starting from the lower level, we can encourage students, see what's going on inside of the parts.

HJO (18:40):

So that they can kind of tinker with those kind of on-the-line phenomena and then make a design decision by making their own, let's say, form factors to make perhaps circle or star shape push button and then adapt it into their project.

HJO (19:01):

I guess that was the key because we wanted to show, really, what's going on inside of it. I guess that's the key. And then looking at how this process, starting from lower level, can invite them to be more creative and be more authentic, have more ownership, sense of ownership, in their product.

EW (19:29):

And this isn't the first set of tools like this. You've done another set.

HJO (19:39):

Yeah. I have worked on this sort of project almost a decade. But really this project, the direct motivation was from a project called PaperMech, which I started as a PhD student, long time ago.

HJO (20:00):

And working on the project,...what we talked about before, the paper-based mechanical structures, I loved what students made out of kind of the working kinetic creatures they made. And then on the process, what students added to automate their movement, to program their movement, was servo motor with a microcontroller.

HJO (20:36):

And then over time I realized, in fact, students didn't understand how a motor really works. Although we talked about it in many workshops, it was invisible. What's going on inside of the servo motor, really a motor itself was invisible, because it's packaged, right?

HJO (21:00):

It's all kind of preassembled. So, I guess from certain points, that's where I got bothered, and then I wanted to kind of make something from lower level.

HJO (21:16):

In other words, even if it doesn't really generate enough torque, and even if it doesn't really make a great movement, I wanted to start from showing electromagnetic phenomena what's going on inside of the motor. And students can start from there and make something that moves from lower level.

HJO (21:44):

It's kind of sneak peak. So following work would be kind of actuation side of it. So far in this paper card project, we only explored sensor card sensors. But we are also looking at now the actuation side of it, because of the reason I just mentioned.

EW (22:05):

Wait a minute, the sensors came first? I actually thought that the PaperMech came first.

HJO (22:12):

Yes. So PaperMech came first.

EW (22:14):

Okay.

HJO (22:14):

And that's where I got motivated and then started this project. But sensors are easier to teach and easier to make a kit. So, that's why we started from sensor side of it, to kind of initiate the overall platform, I suppose.

EW (22:37):

And I have an off-the-wall question here. What's the difference between mechatronics and robotics?

HJO (22:42):

I don't know. And I guess better answer is I don't care, if you've seen my work.

EW (22:53):

Mechatronics sounds cooler. That's all.

HJO (22:57):

Yeah.

EW (22:58):

Okay. So your site is papermech.net. And when I click on FoldMecha, I see a bunch of different mechanisms. There's things I may want to do. I may want to open and close something. I may want to have something go up and down. I may want to flap like a bird, or I may want to rotate.

EW (23:25):

And then when I click on one of those, like the up and down, it then shows me the gear, the rack and pinion, and how it works. And then if I keep clicking around here, it's going to lead me to something I can print out, and put on cardboard, and make my own rack and pinion.

EW (23:44):

I guess the first question is why aren't you charging for this? It's genius. It's so cool. I have never understood these things as well as I do right now, because I can really see how they work.

HJO (23:59):

Thank you. I really appreciate it. And why would I need to charge for that? So that project was initiated under NSF, National Science Foundation fund, and the whole project supported my PhD study as well as...overall in a project team.

HJO (24:28):

I guess we considered, we've got enough, a lot, and we wanted to make something really shareable with the community. When I made those available in the web, at the beginning, I didn't think people would really get to use it, really.

HJO (24:55):

I kind of made it available in the web...really for selfish reason. I made it for my portfolio, and then over the time,...because I have shared it in several kind of conferences and media, I noticed that some people started using it, and then talked about, those are usable.

HJO (25:21):

And then that was that was beyond where we started at the beginning,...and we really appreciated and wanted to kind of make things better. Because we could see that people are using it. Yeah,...that's continued, and we keep working on it.

HJO (25:42):

Now the project is done. And there's no more kind of NSF fund, whatever, but because the overall project team just loves where it's going, and we can see the community is growing, we are just working on it as our lifelong hobby project, I guess.

EW (26:07):

And in addition to showing me how spur gears work, and planetary gears, you have a gallery of things people have done with it, little puppets and moving widgets, some of which are clearly done by kids, some which look more professionally designed. Do you have any favorites...in of your gallery?

HJO (26:36):

I love all of those, and you should know that those are already kind of selective lists, but I love those made by kids. I love those kind of looking more incomplete, have very specific and detailed storyline. I love them.

EW (27:04):

There's one here that's an up and down application showing the rack and pinion, and it has a groundhog, maybe a groundhog, something that looks animalish, behind some grass. And it's just so cute, because it's popping up and then popping down.

EW (27:22):

And it really led to me thinking, "Oh, what else can I do? If I can just print out all the parts, and add a motor, and a...power supply, maybe a microcontroller, so I could have it do it at different times or different timings," it really kind of made my imagination go, "Oh, that's an afternoon's worth of projects, not a year's worth of learning."

EW (27:49):

Was that part of your goal?

HJO (27:51):

Yes, that's exactly part of the goal. And I wanted to kind of make them look, something inspiring, but in a way they feel they can also make something like that. People can feel, 'Oh, that looks so fun."

HJO (28:11):

But not in a way we kind of admire someone in a gallery kind of context. When somebody looks so high, we feel like, "Oh my God, they are just too far from my reality." You know what I'm saying? But in this case, I wanted to make them look specifically kind of something like we can also imitate, or follow, or make my own version.

EW (28:42):

Absolutely. This jumping T-Rex, I have to say the finished quality is perhaps a little lower, but the girl talking about it is completely awesome. And just -

HJO (28:55):

Yeah.

EW (28:55):

- watching it work kind of like how she wanted, but not entirely, was pretty fun...How often do you get to try them out with kids?

HJO (29:10):

I think at least once or twice a year I work with kids. Yeah.

EW (29:20):

Do you wish it was more, or is that about right?

HJO (29:25):

Given my reality, the other side of my job, I think...yeah, that's pretty much what I can handle.

EW (29:37):

Do you also work with more professional designers?

HJO (29:40):

Yes I do.

EW (29:42):

Tell me more please.

HJO (29:46):

Well, so my group works with a broad range of designers starting from K-12 students and educators, to hobbyist makers and design students, to professional designers in the field. And what we really focus on is how, in a set of technologies we build can support them in their creative exploration, both in expressive and technical sides.

HJO (30:22):

So the specific way we kind of start from is looking at what they are already familiar with somehow in accessible contexts and/or materials around them.

HJO (30:37):

So when we work with advanced designers, it means we look at the tools, objects, materials, or even further, practices and cultures they're familiar with, and then see what meaningful additions we can make to enable them for new kinds of making activities for different kinds of learning possibilities.

EW (31:11):

What are the main differences working with the kids versus working with the professional designers, or what are the main similarities?

HJO (31:24):

Let's see the main differences would be, I think the kinds of challenges are different. And the overall...scope of familiarity, scope of accessibility in terms of what I mentioned, tools, objects, materials, those are different.

HJO (31:50):

...What I mentioned earlier in terms of kind of using, let's say, inkjet printer with silver ink, those are kind of things I believe people in the DIY technology community already kind of have seen that and have used it for a while. So for them that is in a familiar and accessible context already.

HJO (32:18):

And if we use some other tools as examples, like 3D printers, laser cutters, they are familiar with those kind of tools, right? So we can kind of start from that level.

HJO (32:31):

But when we talk about kind of K-12, more like working with children, from their perspective, those are what they have heard of, but they haven't really experienced those tools yet.

HJO (32:47):

So we cannot really use them as a starting point to open up their mind. And I guess here, I'm trying to highlight the familiarity and accessibility as a key mechanism to open up their minds, because we are looking at really supporting their creative exploration side.

HJO (33:17):

I believe without having that familiar and accessible context, it is really hard to open up their minds and it is really hard to kind of see the culture of can-do mindset, right? So, yeah, I guess how we can define the scope of familiarity and accessibility, those are different depending on who we work with.

HJO (33:45):

And back to...your questions, in terms of similarity, I think because we work with a broad range of designers, we see a lot of similarities, how they really strive to be more creative. And we look at the technologies we design to be tools eventually. So people use them to kind of navigate their journey eventually.

HJO (34:22):

So we just want to kind of see how they want to navigate their creative journey and what are the kind of close link across what they make, how they think, how they learn.

HJO (34:41):

I guess that's the key and the similarity on the line there, a striving to be more creative, to be more expressive, add one more layer in terms of kind of the technical capacity of their kind of storytelling. I think those are kind of common desires across all levels of designers. Does it answer to your question?

EW (35:07):

That was a great answer. One of the things I liked about some of the videos was the storytelling aspect.

EW (35:19):

And with professional designers, I would think that many of them come in with a thought and just want to know how to make it work, where the students see how something works and then build a thought around the mechanism they're learning.

EW (35:37):

Do you find that to be true, or is that just my imagination?

HJO (35:43):

Yeah. Yeah. So overall tendency is what you mentioned. I will say students..., younger students, come with curiosity, what they learn, and then think about how they would adapt it into their storytelling.

HJO (36:04):

Whereas more trained, advanced level of designers kind of come with their ideas and want to learn more of kind of new technical possibility, I suppose.

HJO (36:18):

But at the same time, I guess, really inspiring materials, and techniques, and tools, even experienced designers can really open up their mind, and step back, and think about kind of broader possibilities when they encounter inspiring kind of tool sets.

HJO (36:47):

And that's why again, I'm really looking at what they are somehow familiar and accessible to in their practices, because it kind of builds up the context...People's minds can be more flexible, I feel.

EW (37:10):

I totally agree with you,...because even just looking at the planetary gears and thinking, "Oh, what could I do with this? Or what could I do with this and origami? Can I mix them?" It...makes my brain fizz.

HJO (37:34):

Thank you.

EW (37:35):

You mentioned getting NSF grants for these. Is it for the technology? Is it for the education aspect? What are the grants for?

HJO (37:48):

I guess, the grant you're talking about was under the PaperMech, and that was proposed as a new medium for engineering education that was proposed by my PhD advisor, Mike Eisenberg and Sherry Hsi. And really PaperMech is a short word of paper mechatronics.

HJO (38:19):

That's kind of...what we proposed in the NSF proposal as a new design medium, combining traditional paper crafting with mechanical, electrical, and computational components.

HJO (38:35):

And there, we talked about how such combinations can bring up such an expanded scope of creative possibilities and how those could be kind of new creative and educational medium for engineering for the next generation. And in that context, we talked about kind of developing a set of techniques and new tools.

HJO (39:07):

Yeah, and under there, the simulator that we talked about, FoldMecha, came out and what we can do...once people download the PDF file and cut the parts to make their own things. The website also shows a set of assembly technique. Those also came out of that grant.

EW (39:35):

And really, I don't need a motor to make any of this work, do I? I could just use a straw and turn it myself.

HJO (39:41):

Exactly. That's just so true. And we actually started exploring it around the end of the project period, because at the beginning we focused on...what will be the newly enabled possibilities when you put things all together.

HJO (40:05):

Other words, because it was kind of proposed as a new STEM learning medium, we wanted to include kind of some of mechanical components, some of electrical components, some of computational components in the context of paper crafting. So it was intentionally kind of added to have some of programming and circuit building.

EW (40:32):

That makes sense. It's a different way to introduce people to these topics.

HJO (40:38):

Yeah, but your idea,...it really makes sense. And we started looking at it actually after three to four years of all the investigation.

HJO (40:53):

Because as we started working with public school teachers, teachers talked about all the real world challenges, how it's hard to kind of support all those physical computing parts, motors and teaching programming with those.

HJO (41:15):

So we kind of looked back and started adding individual elements so that...different kinds of craft teachers can also use our materials because really...we wanted to talk about higher-level creativity, creative learning possibilities for all the fields. So what you suggested totally makes sense.

EW (41:51):

You said you are going to be teaching a course called "Designing for Creativity?"

HJO (41:59):

Curiosity.

EW (42:00):

"Designing for Curiosity," even better. Can you give us the course right now? Because I kind of want to do it, and so if you could just go through all the semester or quarter's worth of information right now, that would be great. Maybe a summary?

HJO (42:22):

"Designing for Curiosity" is a class I designed after joining Georgia Tech.

HJO (42:30):

It's a class to use curiosity as a medium to practice designing interactions for people and looking at how we can make people think, and change actions.

HJO (42:50):

And how we can also kind of look back what changes our actions, what impacts our thinking processes, all those kind of invisible aspects of thinking process, and then adapted into a tangible and visible side of our project.

HJO (43:19):

So...I proposed curiosity more as a medium, literally to inspire students, especially design students.

EW (43:33):

I have a couple listener questions.

HJO (43:37):

Yes?

EW (43:37):

The first, "Do you have any book recommendations that might detail a few of the mechanical designs, and talk about how and why they work?"

HJO (43:46):

The classical book would be "507 Mechanical Movements."

EW (43:53):

We have that one.

HJO (43:55):

You have that one. I love that book. It's really classic. The classic work still works, right? It works for me, because I see myself really visual learner, and bottom up approach really works better for me.

HJO (44:16):

And looking at those very detailed, all the variety of combinations,...at the end of it, I can see more of the essence, the fundamental side of how machines work, how each component work.

HJO (44:36):

If I add one more, for the same reason, but completely different, seemingly different approach, would be Rob Ives. He's in, I guess, UK, and designer paper artist, paper designer. So he makes all variety of paper model, paper automata models. And he also has published many books.

EW (45:07):

Yes. Paper automata. That's what these things are often called. Isn't it? The automata word?

HJO (45:18):

I think so. Yes. Paper automata or paper kinetic sculpture, something like that. Yeah.

CW (45:29):

How did you come to this? Did you start with the research idea of, "Okay. We want to explore how to make design creativity and curiosity easier or more approachable," and then the materials presented themselves as, "Oh, this would be a good set of things to try to work with?"

CW (45:51):

Or where you already interested in working with these materials and went the other way?

HJO (45:57):

I'm from art and design background. I studied art in Seoul, Korea. All my teenage years, I was in art school. So paper has been one of the most comfortable kind of medium I can kind of play with...throughout my thinking process.

HJO (46:17):

And as an art student, I have admired many...kind of genius artists, and one of them included Theo Jansen. Theo Jansen is, if you look up kind of...strandbeest, you can see the whole kind of giant machine walking on the beach.

EW (46:51):

Oh, the strand walker.

CW (46:51):

Yes.

HJO (46:51):

Yes.

EW (46:52):

Okay.

HJO (46:52):

Yes. They're his, and I have admired him such a long time. And I was also in one of his exhibitions in Korea before coming to the States. I think it was 2009 or '10. And so admiring him many years, it was there, but it didn't really occur to me.

HJO (47:19):

It didn't really inspire me to feel like I can also make something like that because it's just so far from -

CW (47:29):

Yeah.

HJO (47:29):

- my reality. And it looked just so fantastic, but at the same time, it didn't seem, I can also make something like that. But then, my first summer as a PhD student, one of my PhD advisors, Mike Eisenberg showed me a YouTube video named "Kinetic Paper Horse."

HJO (47:53):

Nowadays when we search kinetic paper, horse, we can see a bunch of different ones as well, but that time they had very interesting paper kit, clearly kind of representing the Jansen mechanism. But it's made of paper, and it looked very incomplete.

HJO (48:16):

It was a motor-powered version, and looking at that one, I guess it was 2014, and I guess it was my first time ever I felt, "Oh my God. I think I can also make something like that." Although it's much more in a humble version of that. It really didn't matter for me. I just wanted to make my own version.

HJO (48:43):

So I jumped into my prototyping right there, right at that afternoon and spent whole week to make my own version, and I made it. And on the process, I realized that mechanism was much harder than I expected. So it took absolutely more time than I expected.

HJO (49:07):

But I spent days and nights to make my own version, because I was just so engaged. And throughout the experience, I was just so into kind of making things that move, and I started understanding, investigating different kind of relevant mechanical movements. And I learned so much during that week.

HJO (49:34):

So later on, I kind of added the motor, and I kind of connected it to a microcontroller, step-by-step, so that I can learn better about circuit building as well, and then programming the motor as well. And I learned just so much.

HJO (49:54):

And then stepping back after the week, in the conversation with advisors,...we were talking about how this sort of activities can be a strong means for others too for their learning and how this kind of whole process can invite all of us just have so much fun on top of all.

HJO (50:18):

So, that's where I started kind of making tools, making something others can also follow up and inspire them to come up with something like that in their own version.

EW (50:34):

And you have the Jensen mechanism in your list, and you have a video of a four-legged Jansen mechanism walking...which is, I mean, kind of amazing. How long would it take me to build that? Just out of curiosity for the weekend.

HJO (50:57):

Oh, I think you can just spend one, I think, afternoon to make it, but I will say four hours, absolutely. Yeah.

EW (51:11):

Do I need a laser cutter to cut the cardboard?

HJO (51:14):

No. No.

EW (51:15):

Okay.

HJO (51:17):

You don't need to. Yeah.

EW (51:17):

Well, I mean, you cut out actual circles. I have a machine that will cut out circles for me. So that's good, because I couldn't do that part. But I am amazed to look at this little guy walking around, made of cardboard, and a couple of sticks, and a couple of motors.

HJO (51:35):

Yeah. And nowadays there are many kind of, what is it? The desktop plotter machines?

EW (51:42):

Yeah.

HJO (51:42):

The cutting tools. So we can also use them. Yeah.

EW (51:46):

Yeah. I have a Cricut. It's very handy.

HJO (51:49):

That's also my favorite.

EW (51:52):

I do weird origami on it...One more question from Nathan, "Do you have preferred construction materials, fasteners, cutting and gluing tools?

CW (52:06):

Like eight questions.

EW (52:07):

Well, yes, of course, but the construction mechanism, cardboard? Copy paper?

HJO (52:14):

I always start with copy paper just because it's around us all the time. Especially used copy paper, because I don't have to have guilt. Kind of related note, whenever I do workshop, either with kids or university students, I try to use recycled materials.

HJO (52:40):

Not just because it's cheap, but also because it can reduce their fear about failure. So any of recycled discarded materials really help. So discarded cardboard, water bottles, soda bottles, paper cups, copy paper, all of those, whenever I schedule a workshop, I start kind of collecting those for that workshop.

EW (53:10):

That makes sense. Chris, do you have any questions?

CW (53:14):

Yes. Thousands.

EW (53:15):

Yeah, I'm -

CW (53:16):

Let's see.

EW (53:16):

- in that boat too.

CW (53:19):

If listeners are interested in playing around with this stuff, is there a good starting point? Is it just go to PaperMech, or do you have other recommended kind of beginner material or learning materials that you could point people to?

HJO (53:33):

PaperMech can be one way, but really making something even seemingly very trivial, making something can help.

CW (53:46):

Okay.

HJO (53:46):

Just starting something, doing something can help. And back to what I mentioned using the materials, you don't need to kind of have guilt about failure.

CW (54:00):

Right. That's the great thing about it is,...with a lot of the projects that we talk to people about it's electronics-based. And you have to get boards, and learn how to communicate with software and things, and motors...The mechanical side is one of the things that's most intimidating to me.

CW (54:23):

Whenever I have a project that involves anything mechanical, I just stop because I have to either figure out, "Okay, I've got to learn to do CAD. Okay."

HJO (54:32):

Yeah.

CW (54:32):

"If I learn to do CAD, then I've got to figure out how to 3D print these things. But this seems like something that's really approachable that, "Okay. If I have an idea for something mechanical, I can at least start here. And it costs me basically nothing except some time."

CW (54:46):

And like you say, copy paper, which is not very difficult -

HJO (54:53):

Yeah.

CW (54:53):

- to come by. So it never occurred to me to start playing around with mechanical ideas this way. And I think it's really a very, very cool thing.

HJO (55:02):

Thank you...You talked about mechanical stuff. Yes. Because it's about whether it works or not, right? And I think just overall how the traditional STEM field works, because it seems it requires very accurate and planned approach, we feel more distance, I guess.

HJO (55:33):

And that's why a lot of these kind of craft-based approach try to show different ways entry -

CW (55:45):

Yeah.

HJO (55:45):

- to kind of invite them step-by-step. Yeah.

EW (55:49):

I think that's important, because there are people who come at it from the perspective of "Let's just try stuff. Let's try it all. Push all the buttons." And then there are people who come at it from a, "Okay. I believe in the scientific method. And I think we should do this one step at a time."

EW (56:06):

And sometimes you want skills in the other direction. So yeah, I'm thinking that we should clear out the living room, put a couple giant cardboard boxes down, and just play.

CW (56:24):

Okay.

EW (56:25):

This afternoon is about being four-year-olds.

HJO (56:29):

Yeah. Well, I really think, regardless of discipline differences, because there are many disciplines associated with what we call creativity, right? Some of those would be kind of mechanical engineering, what we had talked about what we are talking about, and art, design, craft, engineering, even computer science, all of those.

HJO (57:02):

I believe there is a common ground across all of those fields. And some of those common ground should include what we are talking about, curiosity and messing up, doing it, making, inventing. So all of those really apply to, I think, all the fields we are talking about.

EW (57:31):

Well, I feel that this might be a little redundant, but HyunJoo, it's been great to talk to you. Do you have any thoughts you'd like to leave us with?

HJO (57:44):

I think I talked a lot. I think I talked a lot. Maybe just back to what we already mentioned, making something even seemingly trivial can give all of us joy in our everyday life, I'll say. So let's spend more time making stuff.

EW (58:10):

Our guest has been Professor HyunJoo Oh, the director of the CoDe Craft group and an Assistant Professor with a joint appointment in the School of Industrial Design and the School of Interactive Computing at Georgia Tech.

EW (58:27):

Her site is codecraft.group, where you can find out a lot more information. And don't forget...papermech.net, which I had a lot of fun playing on. So I am looking forward to seeing more about those sensors and other new projects.

CW (58:46):

Thanks, HyunJoo.

HJO (58:46):

Thank you.

EW (58:49):

Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. Thank you to Leah Buechley for our introduction and to our Patreon listener Slack group for questions. Of course, thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show@embedded.fm, or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.

EW (59:08):

And now a quote to leave you, with from Theo Jansen. "The walls between art and engineering exist only in our minds."