389: Blobs Are Not Stressful
Transcript from 389: Blobs Are Not Stressful with Carrie Sundra, Elecia White, and Christopher White.
EW (00:06):
Welcome to Embedded. I'm Elecia White, here with Christopher White. Our guest this week is Carrie Sundra of Alpenglow Industries.
CW (00:15):
Hi, Carrie. Welcome back. It's been quite a while.
CS (00:17):
Hello. Yeah. It's good to be back on the show.
EW (00:21):
Could you tell us about yourself as if we'd never met before?
CS (00:27):
Well, I am Carrie Sundra of Alpenglow Industries. That's a small business that I started. And I am an engineer. I have done a lot of things throughout my life so far.
CS (00:41):
I've done electronics for unmanned aircraft. I've dyed yarn. I've made yarn tools. And yeah, now I'm making some, oh, I call them frivolous circuits and irreverent electronics,...as well as some handy tools for makers and for engineers.
EW (01:03):
We want to do lightning round, which, you have heard the show, so I'm just going to say, are you ready?
CS (01:10):
I am ready.
CW (01:12):
What is alpenglow? The thing...Not your company. What did you name your company after?
CS (01:19):
I named my company after an effect of light. So it's when the light hits the mountains, either at the beginning of the day, or at the end of the day, when you have those nice, long, reddish tones to the light. And something very special, especially in the Sierras, happens where you have that really white-gray granite.
CS (01:39):
And it just lights up this fiery, yellowy, orange-red, and that's called alpenglow. And so, yeah, I named it originally when I was dyeing yarn, because I was dyeing yarn with natural dyes. And so it had a tie-in there to this glowing natural color.
CS (02:04):
And then I kept it. When I started doing more and more electronics, I kept it...Because I want people to be inspired by electronics and see electronics in a different light. And a lot of the things that we do are also kind of LED-based and light-based. So... it still fit.
EW (02:26):
Have you ever seen the green flash?
CS (02:29):
I have not, even though I grew up in the Caribbean, and -
EW (02:33):
What?
CS (02:33):
- apparently had ample opportunity to see the green flash. I don't know. I'm a little skeptical about whether or not it really exists, I have to say.
EW (02:42):
I've seen it.
CW (02:42):
I've seen it.
EW (02:43):
It's cool.
CW (02:43):
Sorry. I have pictures -
CS (02:46):
Alright.
CW (02:46):
- I've taken with a camera too.
EW (02:48):
Well, he had to see it, because I was on a mission for a whole year.
CW (02:53):
It's easier to see with a camera. Have you seen the zodiacal light? Zodiacal?
CS (02:59):
No. Is that different from the Northern Lights?
CW (03:04):
Yes, it is the dust that is in line with the disk of the solar system. And if you're in a very, very dark place, I think you can kind of see it, or it may require photography. I don't remember. But it's kind of a glow from all the dust that's in the solar system.
CS (03:23):
Oh, interesting. No, I don't believe I have seen that. That's cool though.
EW (03:28):
Yes.
CS (03:28):
Can you see it from anywhere, or do you have to be in certain geographical locations?
CW (03:32):
I think you can see it from anywhere.
EW (03:33):
But it has to be really, really dark.
CW (03:35):
Yeah. And I think...it's a weird triangular kind of thing.
CS (03:42):
Cool.
EW (03:43):
Have you seen the northern lights, or southern?
CS (03:47):
No, I have not seen the northern or southern lights...We came close. There was supposed to be a little bit of activity a few years ago when I was in Shetland, and I was really hoping to see them, but sadly they did not come out. So, still have to see that one.
CW (04:07):
Oh, sorry. My turn again. [Geez]. If you could teach a college course, what would you want to teach?
CS (04:14):
...It's a toss-up between something that I would probably call "How to Build [expletive]," and we would just build stuff out of electronics and out of parts and materials. And it would be sort of more of a freshman-level class, just to get people familiar with the process of building things and incorporating electronics into things.
CS (04:36):
It would either be that, or it would be something probably called "From Prototype to Production." And it would go over, "Okay, you have this idea. Now let's make a proof of concept. Now let's make a legit prototype that you can give to somebody else.
CS (04:51):
"And now let's get a few more of these made, and a beta group going, and all of those steps and iterative things that you have to do in order to actually make your idea real, and able to be sold, and able to leave the nest."
EW (05:08):
Have you read Alan Cohen's "Prototype to Product" book?
CS (05:13):
I have not. No.
EW (05:14):
It's really good. He was on the show recently, but not talking about that, talking about other things. It goes through a lot of what you say. But it also touches a little bit on trying to figure out what your product really is.
CS (05:29):
Yes. Yeah.
EW (05:32):
Okay. So if you were teaching a post-college, professional development type course about embedded systems, what three topics should you definitely cover?
CW (05:45):
Strange question.
EW (05:45):
What a very detailed question.
CW (05:45):
Yeah.
EW (05:45):
Very strange.
CS (05:46):
That is a detailed question....I think I would definitely cover commenting your code for yourself and other people in the future. That would definitely be one thing. Let's see. Another thing...I don't know. I might have to think about this a little bit more.
EW (06:20):
Well maybe I'll ask you at the end again, because I really need -
CS (06:23):
Yeah.
EW (06:23):
- the answers for these. Okay. So let's be done with lightning round, unless you have one more you want, Christopher?
CW (06:33):
No, that was -
EW (06:33):
Okay.
CW (06:33):
- not very lightning either. We were all over the place.
CS (06:37):
It can be the slow roll thunder round.
CW (06:40):
You were fine, but we weren't really doing it very well.
EW (06:44):
Okay. So you've mentioned yarn. And when we talked to you, what seems like eons ago, you were finishing a Kickstarter about yarn winding. SkeinMinder, SkeinMinder?
CS (07:00):
SkeinMinder. People pronounce skein different ways.
EW (07:04):
Because, see, it's hard to say.
CS (07:08):
Yeah. Some people say it like [skeen], some people say [skane], some people say [skine], but I try not to be too picky about it. But I say [Skane]Minder.
EW (07:19):
Okay. So that got Kickstarted, and it involved winding the yarn.
CS (07:25):
Yeah. I basically made a controller for desktop winders. Other people make the winders themselves, but...they had very rudimentary speed control, just TRIAC dimmer-switch-based, basically. And there was no way to automate them.
CS (07:46):
So if you were constantly winding your own skeins from cones, which some dyers do, you want all of your skeins to be the same length, so that you can have consistency in your product, so people know what to expect, know how many skeins they'll need in order to knit a project, that kind of thing.
CS (08:04):
And there was just no automation. You couldn't tell the winder how many rotations you wanted to wind to and get it to stop at that. And so that is basically the device that I built. And it could be used with any tabletop winder, and it's really easy to install, because I didn't want people to have to solder, or strip wires, or do anything like that.
EW (08:29):
How was fulfilling the Kickstarter?
CS (08:31):
It was good. I mean, it went off pretty much without a hitch...I had one part that was a little late coming in, because it was a complete snafu with the company who made it. It was the overlays for it, which are kind of integrated with the buttons.
CS (08:51):
And yeah, the first batch I got had the holes cut in completely the wrong spot. And it was one of those things that was a four-week lead part. So they made them again, and it was totally their fault. So they made them super quick. But I was maybe a week late delivering with the start of the deliveries because of that.
CS (09:14):
But yeah,...it went off without a hitch. I had already built ten of them, and there were really almost no changes from the prototypes. So I had a really good idea of what it was going to take to build them. And I hired a couple people part-time to help me. And that was awesome. So yeah, the Kickstarter went great.
EW (09:38):
You're not going to complain about shipping? Because I've heard -
CS (09:41):
No.
EW (09:41):
- complaints about shipping.
CS (09:43):
No. I mean, I priced it all out ahead of time. This was not my first rodeo at selling things. And I think with a lot of people, it is. And so they get surprised-
EW (09:54):
Yeah.
CS (09:54):
- by things. And so...I did a massive spreadsheet beforehand with all of my costs, including shipping, including Kickstarter's percentage, everything, including an estimation of the sales tax I would have to pay based upon the number of people from California that I guessed were going to buy them...
CS (10:16):
That was awful. I don't know if Kickstarter now charges sales tax. It would be really nice if they did. But yeah, I did all that stuff.
EW (10:28):
Shhh. Don't tell Christopher that.
CW (10:29):
I did look it up, so I know I'm in compliance. So it's fine.
CS (10:30):
Yeah. Well,...if you're, yeah, doing really small numbers of stuff, sure.
CW (10:33):
Yeah.
CS (10:33):
But this was definitely well above that.
CW (10:36):
Yeah.
EW (10:37):
And then you did a second project. SkeinTwister.
CS (10:41):
Yeah. And I did crowdfund that as well. But,...well, I did it mostly on my own. Well, yeah, I did it all on my own website. I did use a different payment processing service that at that time was set up for crowdfunding and kind of for exactly the type of thing that I wanted to do, which was crowdfund on my own website.
CS (11:05):
It was called Celery, but they're no longer in business...And that actually worked great too. It was very helpful to already have a customer base from the SkeinMinder. And then the SkeinTwister, it turns out, had a lot more market appeal and just a bigger market.
CS (11:27):
Because every dyer who's dyeing yarn has to twist their own skeins at the end of the process. It's just something you have to do...whereas not every dyer is necessarily winding their own skeins.
CS (11:41):
So yeah, it was a much bigger market, and it was a much bigger pain in the butt for people, and a literal pain point. People were getting elbow tendonitis and all sorts of repetitive injuries from doing this twisting process on hundreds or thousands of skeins of yarn every week.
CW (12:02):
What made you decide to...crowdfund yourself, do the whole process yourself?
CS (12:09):
I felt like I could handle it.
CW (12:13):
Fair enough.
CS (12:13):
Yeah. And I mean,...I am not managing giant campaigns, right?...It's not a cooler or whatever the latest hot Kickstarter is, right? It's not something that has super wide commercial appeal or consumer appeal...My tools are very specific. They're really business-to-business tools. They are only useful for you if you dye yarn.
CS (12:44):
They're not even useful for you if you just knit or work with yarn in any way. So I knew that I wasn't going to be handling tens of thousands of people. I thought a couple hundred maybe. So that was one thing.
CS (13:01):
And just having gone through the process myself and with Kickstarter, because my tools are so specific, Kickstarter didn't really bring any more people to me.
CS (13:18):
So when I was doing the SkeinTwister, at that point, I was just looking at it, and being like, "Okay, well, I'm going to pay this large extra fee,...and I'm not going to really get much from it." So that's what mainly made me decide to do it myself from my own website.
CS (13:37):
The payment processing was a little bit tricky, because a lot of payment processors have crowdfunding, specifically, it's against their terms of service. And somehow Celery was sort of getting around that.
CS (13:53):
But I'm not sure if they really were, because I did get called by PayPal after a few months, a phone call like, "Hey, how's it going? So what are you doing here? And when are you going to deliver?"
CS (14:07):
And that was kind of weird to me, because I was like, "Well, I'm using you as a payment processor through Celery. And I assumed that you guys had something figured out, that this was okay." But I mean, it turned out that it was fine.
CS (14:21):
Because basically, again, I had made 20 beta units for the SkeinTwister, and my lead time was only about three months. So that actually does fall within their terms of service, for kind of custom orders, or for ordering things that are out of stock.
EW (14:42):
So do you still dye yarn yourself?
CS (14:46):
I don't really. I will occasionally do it just for myself, but definitely not for sale anymore. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, and it's a completely different process. And you need kind of a different space, and it's different equipment. So it just wasn't something that I could do and also do electronics at the same time.
EW (15:10):
That makes sense. But you just made tools to make it easier.
CS (15:14):
I know. I did. But if I want to focus on those tools, and building good ones, and also having good customer service, and things like that, then...I can't be dyeing yarn at the same time. But I can build more electronics at the same time, because...it takes the same equipment, same tools, same kind of skill set for people. So, yeah.
EW (15:39):
You mentioned irreverent electronics and -
CS (15:42):
Yes.
EW (15:42):
- frivolous circuitry.
CS (15:44):
Yes.
EW (15:45):
What does that mean?
CS (15:48):
I like to do things that are kind of funny, and maybe involving swear words, or are maybe a little bit persnickety, and specifically designed to be a pain in the ass. So that's where that comes from. And I don't know if anybody else also finds them funny. I hope so. But I like making them.
CS (16:14):
So yeah, I made one thing that I call the FUnicorn. The FUnicorn basically is the most majestic way of telling a person off that you could possibly come up with, I think, in my opinion, maybe.
CS (16:26):
And it involves basically an Arduino clone, a majestic, gold, rearing unicorn, and "F you," but completely spelled out in beautiful cursive letters in LEDs.
EW (16:45):
And you do sell some of these, so other people must find them funny.
CS (16:50):
Yeah. I sell a few of them...That one in particular, it's actually a large board, and 122 LEDs are not cheap. And so unfortunately, it's at a price point that's a little bit above where I wanted it to be. But actually, compared to other things that have that many LEDs on them and stuff like that, it's actually not that bad.
CS (17:16):
Right now I'm selling it for $69, just because that's a funny number. But...the assembly cost on that board was pretty expensive.
EW (17:29):
Are you using addressed LEDs, or are you doing a Charlieplex/matrix sort of thing?
CS (17:36):
Oh, neither. So I'm using just standard red 0603 LEDs, just dumb red LEDs...All of my boards, I pretty much do all the placement by hand, but they were hand placed at varying angles in order to spell out "F you" in script,...and basically each word is individual. So "F" is on its own line. "You" is on its own line.
CS (18:10):
The exclamation point is on its own line. And then there's also a really interesting colored cyan LED at the tip of the horn, and that's on its own line as well. And the way that I did it was that...those three banks of LEDs basically,...each of them has their own LDO.
CS (18:33):
So there's actually a switcher that makes 3.3 volts and runs the entire board. And then there's an LDO that steps down to 2.5 volts for each bank of LEDs. And then it goes through the resistor in the LED. Because I think they're 1.8 volt Vf LEDs.
CS (18:53):
So I wanted to get a little bit more of the power kind of spread out amongst the different components there. But yeah. And...basically the line from the ATmega328P just goes to an enable line on each of those power converters.
CS (19:16):
And so when you're PWMing them and stuff like that, you're actually PWMing the enable on the power converter. And because it's an LDO, it's very, very quick to start up and shut down. And....it's just like you're commanding all of those LEDs at once.
EW (19:35):
Okay. I, for some reason, thought you could spell out other things, but now that I look at it, yes -
CS (19:39):
No.
EW (19:39):
- you can only spell that out.
CS (19:40):
That's it. It's a one trick pony. It has one purpose in life, and that's to show people how you really feel.
EW (19:50):
But it also comes with the Big Red Button kit too.
CS (19:53):
Yes. So...the fun thing for me is seeing how many different ways you can actuate it, right? And...of course, hitting a Big Red Button is super satisfying, and that's one of my favorite ways. I also have the unicorn hooked up as a capacitive touch sensor. So...you can touch the unicorn, and it'll go off.
CS (20:15):
We've also hooked up an ultrasonic distance sensor. So we had the social-distancing, six-foot version of the FUnicorn. And then we've also used the AIY Voice Kit with the Raspberry Pi. And so you can say, "Hey, Google. F you," and it'll actually light up. And that might be my favorite version, because it's kind of multipurpose.
EW (20:47):
Alright. You mentioned that it is for sale. It's for sale on Tindie and on your own site.
CS (20:53):
Yeah,...we just started listing stuff on our own website just last week. So that is very, very new. And, yes. And we've been selling on Tindie for a while, for a few years now. I like both, honestly. I like Tindie a lot as a marketplace. They charge a very reasonable fee. They're always retweeting everything that their people sell.
CS (21:17):
They interact with you a lot on Twitter, which is really cool. And people who are going there are going there specifically to find unique, fun things. So it's a great market fit for a lot of what we do.
CS (21:34):
But yeah, it's also nice though to have your own website, and I want to expand offerings, and I want to curate cool things from other people as well. And I can't really do that. I can't really sell other people's stuff...from the Tindie platform.
EW (21:52):
Some of your other things are learn-to-solder kits.
CS (21:55):
Yeah. Yeah.
EW (21:56):
How do you decide which ones to do for that?
CS (22:01):
That's been pretty easy so far. So, so far, actually, my employee Robin has been designing them. And it's been an awesome learning experience for her, because these are the first circuit boards she's ever designed.
CS (22:21):
So it's really nice when you can enable somebody like that, and have it be both a teaching and a skill building thing, as well as then something that we can sell in the store that is really nice for beginners.
CS (22:36):
Because frankly,...I might not be as good about designing things for beginners, right? Because it's been so long since that realm for me. I tend to more easily design things that are kind of intermediate-level.
EW (22:53):
And you've mentioned employees. Is this your full-time job?
CS (22:58):
Yes, it is my full-time job. I'm still doing a tiny, tiny bit of consulting work, just really follow-on stuff from previous clients. But SkeinTwisters are about half of what we do, SkeinTwisters, a little bit of SkeinMinders.
CS (23:18):
And then the other half is we're working on building up all of the fun kind of maker electronics, things that are a little bit more educational in nature and creative in nature.
EW (23:29):
How do you decide what sort of frivolous circuitry you want to build for yourselves versus what you want to sell to other people?...Is sales always in your mind, or do you sometimes say, "I just want this for me?"
CS (23:48):
No, it's a little bit of both. I mean, we kind of have things divided up into products and projects. So products are things that we're selling. Projects are things that we're just doing for ourselves.
CS (24:03):
But we're still talking about them. And we're still tweeting about them, and we'll still try to document them, and things like that, so that other people, if they're interested, can reproduce them...Deciding what to do, it's a bit of a lot of things.
CS (24:21):
It's, yes, a bit of planning and things that speak to us from a either utility perspective, or just a fun perspective. And then sometimes...there'll be some small little problem or little thing that we'll encounter while we're doing something else.
CS (24:46):
And it's like, "Oh, you know what would be really useful, would be to have this thing. Why don't we just quick make that? And there. Now we have it. Yay." And that was kind of how the SwitchTrick came about, which is a breadboard power supply that's a switching module that has a bunch of different jumper-selectable outputs.
CS (25:10):
...I needed to breadboard up that chip, and I was like, "Well, I could just make a quick dev board, or I could put a little bit more time into it, and make it into something useful that other people could also find useful, and that would plug straight into a breadboard," and all that kind of stuff. So there's a bit of that.
CS (25:32):
And then sometimes it's a little bit of a holiday kind of thing, holiday stuff and inspiration. So I made this surface mount soldering kit called PS - I Hate You, and it was in a heart shape. Yep.
EW (25:50):
That's the one I'm looking at. It's red. It's in a heart shape. It's adorable. It says "You're #1," and then it has little arrows on it. It's very cute, but there's a problem with it.
CS (26:02):
There is. There are a few problems with it. It basically doesn't have any components at any normal angles, and all the traces are routed in a really kind of haphazard way. So if you're really OCD, and you want your board layouts to be perfect and neat, it is exactly the perfect thing that you need to have in your life.
EW (26:26):
To be fair, things are neat. They just aren't straight.
CS (26:31):
They're just not straight. No. There's not a straight line. There are traces that make acute angles.
CW (26:38):
I do appreciate...the pads for the battery are even at an angle.
CS (26:42):
Thank you. Thank you. Yes.
CW (26:45):
Unnecessarily -
CS (26:48):
Unnecessarily.
CW (26:48):
- off-kilter.
CS (26:48):
Yeah. There's one LED that's in the opposite direction from the other three.
CW (26:55):
That's a great idea.
EW (26:55):
That's horrible.
CS (26:55):
I really wanted to use anode-marked LEDs for that. And that was my original plan, to be really, really a pain in the ass about it.
CS (27:05):
But unfortunately...I needed a high-efficiency, high-brightness, low-current LED, because I didn't know ahead of time that 555 timers have drastically different output current sticks at three volts than they do at five volts.
CS (27:31):
And so I had done a whole bunch of testing at five volts and was thinking, "Okay. Well, no problem. These ones operate down to three volts. No big deal." But it's not until you get...really into the weeds of all the graphs in the 555 timer datasheet that you realize that the output current capacity is tiny.
CS (27:54):
I don't know. It might even be a tenth to a hundredth of what it is at five volts. So yeah, when I got the first boards, I was like, "These LEDs are awfully dim."
EW (28:02):
Voltage.
CS (28:05):
So yeah, I had to quick switch to some higher brightness ones. And that was fine. But yeah, always learning, always something...that is unexpected.
EW (28:20):
Do you have anything in mind that you're going to go forward with? I mean, I would have a dozen ideas, and then I would not manage -
CS (28:29):
Oh, yeah. I keep a list. It's called terrible ideas. And yeah. I keep a list of terrible ideas, and I mean, there's so many that I want to do. I really want to do a feminist meeting button series. So again, on the Big Red Button kind of theme.
CS (28:48):
But I want a set of four, and you would hit one, and it would say, "Interrupting!" And you'd hit another one, and it would say, "Didn't I just say that?" And things like that. But I think...one would actually be a positive reinforcement one. It would be like, "Thanks for backing me up."
CW (29:13):
But that could be sarcastic too.
EW (29:16):
No, that one should say, "Here, have a cookie."
CW (29:21):
I think if it just rotates through randomly, it's going to be right 99% of the time anyway.
CS (29:27):
Oh, yeah. But I'm not sure if that one's going to be a project or a product. We'll see.
EW (29:33):
I could think of so many things. "You know I wrote that code, right?" Whenever somebody explains it to me. Yeah.
CS (29:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
EW (29:42):
And you've been doing this podcast, but on YouTube, but live?
CS (29:49):
Live stream, live stream. Yeah.
EW (29:53):
That's like Twitch, but on YouTube?
CS (29:57):
Kind of, I guess. Yeah.
EW (29:59):
You have to put these things in where they fit.
CS (30:00):
I guess.
CW (30:01):
You know there was live things before Twitch, right?
CS (30:04):
There were. Yes. Yes. There were.
CW (30:04):
No -
EW (30:06):
But were there on YouTube?
CW (30:08):
I think so. Yeah.
CS (30:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
EW (30:09):
So you're going to tell me it's like live TV, but on YouTube.
CS (30:12):
Yeah. Basically.
CS (30:16):
I'm just saying I'm not going to allow Twitch...to replace live as an adjective.
EW (30:21):
TikTok, but live?
CW (30:25):
Alright.
CS (30:27):
Yes, exactly.
EW (30:28):
Okay. You've been doing live streams from YouTube, which, I mean, live stuff scares me, because I say such stupid stuff, and occasionally Chris will agree to cut it.
CW (30:42):
Oh, this is live. You knew that, right?
EW (30:42):
Oh, yeah. Sure. It's live.
CW (30:44):
No.
EW (30:44):
No it's not. What -
CS (30:47):
That's actually... It's one of the reasons I'm doing it.
EW (30:49):
Why?
CS (30:51):
...Because it's scary.
EW (30:53):
Okay.
CS (30:55):
I wanted to do it for a few reasons. One is just representation. One of the reasons that I want to go through the craziness and uncertainty of having my own company is I have yet to work in a company that has a good culture, especially regarding women and people who are underrepresented.
CS (31:28):
And I got to the point where I'm just kind of like, "Screw it. I would rather build my own, and work for myself, and build the place in the culture that I always wanted to work at." And there are only two of us right now, so we're very small, just beginning.
CS (31:52):
But...I figured, "Well, I can just be myself. And I can do my thing on the internet and be out there soldering, making my stupid comments, whatever, putting together projects, learning new things, and featuring other people too, as well."
CS (32:19):
So I feel like the more people who are different who are out there doing things, the more likely it is that somebody else will see that and that something about it will resonate with them. And I'm just trying to make things a little less of a dude fest.
EW (32:43):
Do you read the comments on SolderSesh?
CS (32:48):
Honestly, it's not super well-viewed at this point, so I don't get a ton of comments. But I mean, I do read the comments. Absolutely. And I will moderate the crap out of them.
CS (33:02):
And yeah, if somebody isn't being very nice, I haven't really had to deal with that yet, but we'll see what happens when the time comes. I'll either clap back or delete.
EW (33:18):
That's always the scary thing about living your life more online. It's great to represent, but it's hard to not be scared.
CS (33:31):
Yeah. I'm a little less scared about that. I don't know. I guess I'm more scared of unknowns and I know that that's out there.
EW (33:44):
Okay.
CS (33:45):
So therefore I'm just like, "Yeah, yeah. I'll have to deal with it at some point in time. Whatever." But no, the thing that's scariest to me about going live and stuff is just, I've never been that comfortable in front of a camera, and I've never really enjoyed seeing pictures of myself, and stuff like that.
CS (34:08):
And so it's the actual physical part of being seen that is actually the scariest, as well as just being afraid of saying something stupid, or sounding dumb. And I've definitely made mistakes, and said things backwards, and things like that.
CS (34:25):
But I don't know. I just kind of am like, "Whatever," about it, because I am human. I'm not perfect. Just because I make a mistake doesn't mean that I am bad or am not good at what I do, right? Everybody makes mistakes, especially in front of cameras.
EW (34:44):
It's good to have that and to be practicing it. I recently, right before we started recording, got back a video interview I did, and I watched all of three seconds of it before I was like, "Why didn't somebody tell me to put on chapstick? I mean, seriously."
EW (35:06):
And then I couldn't watch anymore because...I wouldn't have been able to podcast. But I have that to look forward to.
CS (35:14):
Yeah. And that's another thing too, is that I'm not anti-chapstick, not at all. Chapstick is very useful and good. But I am a bit anti-makeup. I just don't enjoy wearing it. I don't enjoy wearing it. I don't enjoy the time it takes to put it on. I don't enjoy the money it takes to buy it.
CS (35:35):
And so I know, being in my mid-forties, right, I am not a spring chicken...But I also feel like that is also kind of part of representation. I want to see more normal people on YouTube and doing their thing. And it's also a thing about the big differences between expectations between genders, right?
CS (36:06):
Men are viewed and never expected to look nice all the time on camera and yet women are, so a bit of it is also me giving the middle finger to that expectation.
EW (36:22):
How do you choose what you're going to talk about?
CS (36:25):
Well, it originally started off with me having way too many solder kits and never making the time to put them together. So I just started with what I had on the shelf at first. And now it's morphed a little bit.
CS (36:43):
And there are definitely some people who I've gotten to know through meetups, and Twitter, and stuff like that that are doing really cool things that I want to showcase, and feature, and have them talk about making.
CS (36:58):
Because I always think it's really interesting to talk to the person that made something about their design decisions, and why they made it, and things like that. So that's really fun.
CS (37:10):
And part of it is also I want there to be some sewing, and knitting, and sort of soft skills in there, like circuits for people who don't necessarily know how solder. And, yeah, also sometimes it's just stuff that is interesting to me that I want to learn about too.
CS (37:39):
Oh, and then some of it is behind-the-scenes designing products. So...yeah, we just did a whole series about the... RPG RGB board.
EW (37:59):
Okay. I kind of want to know what that is, but I have more questions, so I may come back to that or I may not. But you did one about Pocket Operators recently, which are these little synths/video games. Do I get to pick it up and play with it, and then it will be really annoying to people -
CW (38:17):
Yeah.
EW (38:17):
- as they listen.
CW (38:18):
Well, I think the batteries may be down, -
CS (38:21):
Yeah.
CW (38:21):
- at least one or two of them over there.
EW (38:21):
I was so excited to see that. And then he didn't work there. I want somebody who works there to come talk to us. And I was like, "Oh, I can ask Carrie to introduce me...," but it was just about them, which they're really cool. Or I wouldn't be so excited, but -
CS (38:38):
Yes.
EW (38:38):
Yeah.
CS (38:40):
Yes, no. It was not in conjunction with the people who made them that one. That one was not. That one was me and David, and he was basically kind of giving me the overview of them, and how they work, and stuff like that.
EW (38:58):
Well, if you find out, anybody from Teenage Engineering, or if anybody out there is listening, I would like to talk about those, if only because I don't quite understand how to make them work the way I want, unless I'm playing a game.
CW (39:13):
Well, I mean, that's part of the fun, but they are documented. You can read the documentation.
EW (39:17):
You never told me there was documentation.
CS (39:19):
There's some documentation. I too, I understand this feeling, because that's where I was too. And...that's kind of why I wanted to do that, and why I wanted to have somebody on who had more experience with them, and could explain it to me, and...could explain to me basically what the different buttons did, and how to use it.
CS (39:43):
Because there's instructions on, "Oh, you change chord like this," but there's not sort of a basic overview and a how-to on how to make this tune your own.
CS (40:00):
And yeah, that's what David was really great at, because he was like, "Okay, so this is how you change chord. But now do this, and change the chord once with every loop through, and then you'll get this cool song out of it that sounds more...like a loop a DJ would play," right? Yeah.
EW (40:21):
You're not just supposed to push buttons randomly?
CW (40:23):
Well, you can. That's fun too.
CS (40:24):
I know. I know. I tried that, and I was never satisfied with the results.
CW (40:30):
Part of the problem I have with them is...they all have a very similar interface in some ways, but they're all different enough that they don't.
CS (40:40):
Yeah.
CW (40:40):
Each of them makes different sounds, and it has different applications for what kinds of sounds. Some are drum machines, and some are melody things, and some are bass things. And a lot of them have the same kind of recording thing for making your patterns and whatnot.
CW (40:53):
But then the buttons that deal with notes and stuff are all different and do different things. So it gets very confusing to try to carry over how you use one to another one, I found.
CS (41:06):
Yeah, I feel like kind of...getting really familiar with one and then going to another one -
CW (41:14):
Yeah.
CS (41:14):
- is a better way. Because yeah, I know. I kind of immediately got three of them, and I tried going back and forth, and...I was just very, very confused. But I'll say the Arcade is a really good one, because you're not necessarily going to make anything melodic out of it, right?
CS (41:33):
But that's not really the point of Pocket Operators anyway, I don't think. But what's good about it is that it has a little bit of everything. So it's not just a percussion or just a beat synth. It has a little bit of all of those. So I feel like it is a good, round, single one to have. Plus I mean, eight-bit arcade noises, who doesn't love those?
EW (42:02):
And it's kind of like my Bandimals app that, no matter what you do, it doesn't sound that bad.
CS (42:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
EW (42:11):
You have Arcade?
CW (42:13):
Yes. It's somewhere over there.
EW (42:13):
Oh, I turned this one on. Oh, it's Arcade. [Quiet arcade sound].
CS (42:15):
Hey.
EW (42:18):
[Quiet arcade sound]. It's too quiet, I think.
CS (42:20):
I heard some [pew pews].
EW (42:21):
Exactly. Okay. You mentioned the fabric, the conductive, the threads.
CS (42:29):
Yeah.
EW (42:29):
And we talked about yarn earlier.
CS (42:33):
Yes.
EW (42:33):
Is there conductive yarn, and what do you use it for?
CS (42:37):
So there's definitely conductive thread...And I mean, when does yarn become thread? When does thread become yarn? The answer will vary depending upon who you ask. I would say that -
EW (42:52):
Deep philosophical questions.
CS (42:52):
Right? I would say that thread is a type of yarn, right? So in that respect, yes, there's plenty of conductive yarn. But if you're thinking about something that's thicker that is made for knitting, I mean, people do knit with thread that happens to be conductive, and they'll carry it along with a bigger yarn.
CS (43:18):
And there are a lot of patterns with steel yarn, steel-spun yarn, and metallic yarns, and things like that. So that does exist, but I'm not aware at least of anybody in the knitting community who is really adding LEDs to scarves, and shawls, and things like that.
CS (43:42):
And I think one of the big reasons is because it's actually quite an interesting and difficult little problem. A lot of what I see with LEDs and conductive thread are things like embroidery, and cross-stitch, and things that lay flat, and are rigid.
CS (44:01):
And I mean, even cosplay stuff, it tends to be sewn along the seams. It's not flopping all over itself, right? When you think about having a knit scarf...and it being all bunched around your neck, and then you think about trying to do something with conductive thread with it, the problem is that the thread isn't insulated.
CS (44:24):
So,...if you were trying to run power and ground throughout your whole thing, you'd just be shorting your LEDs out all the time. And so half of them may not work or whatever. And so then it's like, "Okay. Well, so how do you make something that's insulated but that also doesn't add a huge amount of stiffness to your scarf?"
CS (44:48):
Because you still want it to be nice, and drapey, and flowy. And even if you're like, "Well, okay. I could use some really teeny, tiny, 42-gauge enamel wire for this," then you're like, "Okay. Well, yeah. Sure. I could do that in a project, because I know how to work with enamel wire," or, "I have a soldering iron to strip the enamel wire," right?
CS (45:08):
"I can solder it to LEDs in the chain." But if you're thinking about like, "Well, I want to encourage knitters who don't necessarily have soldering skills or previous electronics experience. I want to encourage your average knitter to play with LEDs," it just becomes more difficult.
CS (45:26):
Because then you're like, "Okay...There's not a really good way of handling that particular type of wire without specific tools like that." So I think it's a really interesting problem. And yeah, if anybody knows of some super duper small, flexible, insulated wire, I'm all ears, because it would definitely be interesting.
EW (45:51):
You said about encouraging people to put together circuits without the barrier of soldering.
CS (45:59):
Yeah.
EW (46:00):
I know about Chibitronics and the sticker-based circuits. And I know the theory of conductive thread, but I've never used it for anything. I mean, I think if I was going to use it, it would be sewing on my sleeve to do something. If I touch a spot, then something lights up.
CS (46:23):
Yeah. Yep. And there's a lot of stuff out there for that right now. I mean, cosplayers are doing amazing sewable circuits and making pockets that are switches, zippers that are switches, stuff like that that's really, really cool.
CS (46:45):
I actually don't have a big background in sewing. Well, I mean, I do a tiny bit of hand stitching, but I'm not a big sewer in terms of sewing machines, and making your own clothes, and things like that. So that stuff is a little bit of learning curve for me, just in the sewing aspect of it.
EW (47:10):
I don't know how to knit. I used to be able to sew with the sewing machine, but that was long ago.
CS (47:19):
It's just like riding a bike they tell me.
EW (47:25):
Yeah. Let's see how well I do if I ever get the right sewing machine...Have you thought about adding that to some of your frivolous circuits?
CS (47:35):
Yeah. I definitely have. I would like to do a little bit more than that. So Debra Ansell and I are doing a live stream, next Wednesday's live stream is going to be about making your own blobs, where you basically either bend or hand knit, well, finger knit, addressable LED wire into a shape.
CW (48:04):
What?
CS (48:05):
So yeah, it's super, it's kind of hilarious, fun, ridiculous, and very satisfying. And it doesn't take all that long. So yeah, super fun. But you can just get these addressable LED strands off of Amazon for 9 to 15 bucks, depending upon how long they are.
CS (48:30):
They have a USB connector with a microcontroller in it and a button on it that cycle through a whole bunch of different built-in patterns. And so really all you have to do is make a super cool shape out of this strand.
CS (48:44):
And you can totally do that without any soldering, or you don't even have to have knitting experience, because Debra's method, she does this cool swirl and zip tie kind of pattern. I knit because that made sense to me, right, being a knitter.
CS (49:05):
I was like, "Oh, I could totally knit a tube out of this." And yeah. And you don't even have to have any programming experience or anything, because there are all of these built-in patterns.
EW (49:17):
These are the fairy-light size. These are small.
CS (49:20):
Yeah. They're kind of fairy-light sized. They're a little bit bigger, because they are the addressable LEDs, and they have a big blob of epoxy over each one. And there's usually a strand of three wires basically going between each LED. So it's a little bit more substantial than fairy lights, but yeah, very, very similar.
EW (49:44):
Do you remember when those lights were $200, -
CS (49:47):
I do. Yeah.
EW (49:50):
- and were as big or bigger than the kind of big Christmas lights?
CW (49:53):
I remember when LEDs were only red, so -
CS (49:57):
Yeah. Yeah.
CW (49:58):
- it's not really impressive when you say, "Do you remember when addressabilities were expensive?"
EW (50:04):
I just had so many projects I wanted to do with addressable LEDs. And now that they're here, it's like, "Yeah, I don't really have time."
CW (50:10):
You were ahead of your time.
CS (50:11):
I could just buy that.
EW (50:13):
Yes, exactly.
CS (50:14):
Yeah.
EW (50:15):
Okay. So finger knitting?
CS (50:18):
Yeah.
EW (50:18):
That's not a thing. That's not a thing.
CS (50:21):
Totally a thing. It's totally a thing. And it's funny, because I haven't really been interested at all in finger knitting. Basically because it's great for kids, it's great if you're just starting out and stuff like that, but it makes big chunky garments, right, which are not the kind of things that I prefer to make.
CS (50:39):
...However, if you're trying to knit with LEDs, it turns out it's just really easy to use your fingers, and to make loops, and to push them through other loops. And that way you can also...bend the wire exactly the way that you want to so the LED is nice and centered in the middle.
CS (51:02):
I haven't actually tried to knit it with needles. And I do have some big, giant plastic ones that would probably work. But it would also twist the wire a lot. And I think it wouldn't actually help. I think it would actually make it a little bit harder.
EW (51:17):
And this show that's coming out before this one does, the goal is to make a blob, which I think -
CS (51:27):
Yes.
EW (51:27):
- is a very nice low bar that maybe I could do.
CS (51:32):
Absolutely.
CW (51:33):
Well, did you look at them? Because they're not just blobs.
EW (51:36):
No, they were super cute.
CS (51:36):
They are.
CW (51:37):
They're well-structured blobs.
EW (51:38):
They're really well-structured for blobs.
CS (51:43):
But you know what? Your blob can be whatever you want your blob to be...Blobs are not stressful. Blobs are willing to be whatever shape you feel like making in the moment.
EW (51:58):
Yeah. Okay. Well, Build a Blob was October 13th at 5:00 PM.
CS (52:03):
Yeah.
EW (52:03):
But you can still watch the video even though -
CS (52:06):
Absolutely.
EW (52:06):
- that's in the future now, but in the past for anybody listening to this.
CW (52:11):
Okay.
EW (52:12):
Time is hard. Never work on time. And you're doing that with Debra, who is also known as Geek Mom Projects?
CS (52:22):
Yes. Yes.
EW (52:24):
She's going to be on the show in a little while. I didn't realize you knew each other.
CS (52:27):
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I've met Debra via meetups and Twitter in the past year. And I was down in L.A., about a month ago now, and that's where she lives, in the L.A. environs. And so, yeah. So I actually got to meet up with her in person, and that's when I saw the amazing blob that she had just sitting on her desk.
CS (52:53):
And I was like, "What? That thing is so cool." And she's like, "Want to make one?" And I was like, "Yeah." And so, yeah. So that's how blob madness kind of ensued.
EW (53:06):
The extra-large googly eyes are just the best part.
CS (53:09):
Yeah. You've got to have the big googly eyes...I only had small googly eyes when I got home, and they just didn't look right on the blob. You really have to have the big ones.
EW (53:20):
What should I ask Debra when she's on the show?
CS (53:23):
Oh my gosh. Everything. She comes up with such creative and interesting things, both wearables, and just the blob. I would never have thought about just making a blob out of those lights and making this sort of cool little pet...I would love to know how she comes up with her ideas. What does that crazy thought process look like?
EW (53:56):
It's funny. When I invited her, one of the things she said was she's not classically trained in electrical, and you are. And so it's pretty funny to have you be together and be able to do both. I like the collaboration. I'm looking forward to more collaboration.
CS (54:17):
Absolutely. Absolutely. But she is a programmer though, too. So, I don't know...I feel like programming and electronics,...there's a lot of crossover there.
EW (54:30):
Especially in my job.
CS (54:33):
Right?
EW (54:33):
Which reminds me, getting back to -
CS (54:35):
Yeah.
EW (54:35):
- if you were teaching a course about embedded systems, which three topics should you definitely cover?
CS (54:41):
Okay. I have better answers now. I would still go with the commenting. I would absolutely cover ESD protection, and I think I would cover testing and troubleshooting. I think that those are probably some of the most important things that will prevent you from having problems in the long run.
CW (55:07):
You should probably show how to use a logic analyzer if you're not -
EW (55:10):
Oh, no. I'm doing that. I'm doing that.
CW (55:10):
Oh, okay. Alright.
EW (55:13):
And I'm doing testing -
CW (55:14):
Alright.
EW (55:14):
- pretty well. But there is a point where I just lick my hands and then run them over the boards.
CW (55:23):
That seems like it would hurt on a lot of boards.
EW (55:25):
Well, no. I mean, actually, I just flip chips out of their boards. And I wasn't planning on making it super ESD-safe.
CW (55:32):
Well, you know how I feel about ESD.
EW (55:33):
It's fake.
CS (55:35):
Oh, it's fake until it's not. It's never a problem until it is. And then when it is, it's a fricking beast of a problem.
EW (55:46):
But chips have gotten so much better about that.
CW (55:49):
I think it's all a scam for Big Wristband.
CS (55:54):
...Yeah. Yes and no.
CW (55:57):
I'm kidding. Totally kidding.
CS (55:57):
No, no. I was talking about chips getting better about that.
CW (56:01):
Yeah.
CS (56:02):
Because it is a bigger deal in lower voltage systems. They tend to be more susceptible to it, and there aren't as many good protections for low-voltage components as there are for higher voltage. It's hard to get. There aren't many TVS diodes that are made for three-volt systems.
EW (56:22):
Cool.
CS (56:22):
So, not as many as are made for five volts, at least. And I think it actually does have to do with the physics of it, which I don't know, because it's been a long-ass time since college.
EW (56:36):
Well, it's better to go ahead, and lick your hand, and then touch the board than to [sound of hands rubbing together] rub your hands together...or shuffle your feet. Yeah, no. I have ESD protection.
CW (56:46):
No, it's the balloon. You're supposed to rub a balloon on a cat and then rub that on your board. Not the cat, the balloon.
EW (56:54):
It's true, because the cat can cause other damage.
CS (56:59):
Yeah. It can scratch your silk screen, your solder mask.
EW (57:05):
Well, Carrie, I know that this hasn't been quite long enough, but I want to catch up with just you and not all these other people.
CS (57:14):
Heck yeah.
EW (57:14):
Do you have any thoughts you'd like to leave us with?
CS (57:20):
I guess my final thoughts are,...there've been so many people lately, so many stories about women being in these jobs that are just unappreciative and discouraging environments. And I just want to say, "I hear you, and I wish it weren't that way."
CS (57:43):
There are a lot of other cool people out there, and yeah, sometimes taking a break from electronics is really good. I mean, I dyed yarn for a few years, and then finally I was like, "Okay, you know what? I do actually miss it. And I want to get back into it." And I was sort of ready to do that more on my own terms. So, yeah.
EW (58:09):
Well, I'm glad you came back, although it's been a while that you've been back. So I don't feel like "welcome back" is the right term.
CS (58:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe "congratulations for still being back." I don't know.
EW (58:23):
There's some of that. I mean, -
CS (58:24):
There's some of that. Yeah.
EW (58:24):
- it's sometimes hard to just stay.
CS (58:28):
Yeah. Yeah.
EW (58:28):
The grass is always greener on the other side of the mountain.
CS (58:33):
Yeah.
EW (58:33):
That's because the mountains in the alpenglow,...it was a callback.
CW (58:36):
Got you.
EW (58:36):
Although if I have to explain it, it's a bad one. So I'm getting that. Our guest has been Carrie Sundra, founder of Alpenglow Industries.
CW (58:47):
Thanks, Carrie.
CS (58:48):
Thank you so much. It's been super fun.
EW (58:51):
Thank you to Christopher for producing and co-hosting. And thank you for listening. You can always contact us at show@embedded.fm or hit the contact link on embedded.fm.
EW (59:03):
And now a quote to leave you with, from Elizabeth Barrette. "Alpenglow": "Even the rainbow never dreamed of this: The touch of lastlight on snowy shoulders, the kiss of dawn on crystal lips, a rush of rarest red welling up to fill the mighty sky with splendor."